Revel On-Wall M10, C10, M8 - First Impressions

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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I recently brought home a 5 speaker set of Revel On-Wall M10 Front, C10 Center and M8 Surround speakers for an audition. I'm planning on some theatre changes this year and the plan includes on-wall speakers so that I can have a wall-mounted 70" LCD for lights-on TV and videogame viewing with a 100" drop-down front projection screen for 2.35:1 and IMAX-like movie viewing. Having that drop down screen pretty much demands on-wall speakers since my theatre is rather small (12' wide x 15' long x 7.5' high) and I don't have the depth for standard speakers behind the screen and no desire to put the center way down low and the front L/R speakers way out to either side in order to have them clear of the front projection screen's frame.

So with that in mind, I've been on a search for on-wall speakers that can hold up to my fairly high standards for audio quality while still not going insane with the price tag ;)

A few in-store auditions have left me mostly very unimpressed. Def Tech and Paradigm on-wall speakers have failed to sound like normal speakers - completely lacking any soundstage depth, almost never having a perfect sonic match between the front L/R speakers and the center (despite the center often being nothing more than an identical front speaker placed horizontally), and generally lacking that uncanny sense of realism where instruments and voices simply sound like the real thing being played in the room in front of you.

Only two on-wall speakers that I heard in store impressed me, and those were the Paradigm Signature W5 on-walls - which are very large and very expensive - and these Revel on-walls, which are very reasonably priced at around $500 each retail (less, of course, when you ask for a better price ;) )

What impressed me about the Revel on-walls in store was the virtually perfect sonic match across the front three speakers, with pans sounding natural and very nearly flawless. No alteration of the panning sound as it travelled from front speaker to center speaker to the other front speaker. The Paradigm W5 on-walls clearly played louder with better dynamics. The Beryllium tweeter was also a cut above and there was substantially more bass. Of course, everything from the size, to the number of drivers, to the price made this difference entirely predictable. The Revel speakers were not as impressive in an absolute sense, but with their low price, I felt - in store at least - that they were a very good value.

So that led me to plop down some cash and bring them home for a proper audition. Everything about the packaging and fit-and-finish is very good. The Revel speakers are much lighter weight than I expected. Certainly easy to affix to the wall with no worries about the weight, but not exactly impressive when you think of how light-weight the magnets must be. The all aluminum enclosures look very nice in a totally understated and unobtrusive sort of way. Despite the many photos of the speakers with the grills off, I found there was no way to remove the grills. You can take off the end caps (it's part of the process for using the wall mount) and when you do so, you can clearly see that the front grill cloth is directly sandwiched between the outer enclosure and the rigid framing holding it in place. I don't see how you could remove the grill and ever get the fabric back in place, so as far as I can tell, the grills do not come off.

So the speakers are small, very skinny and light-weight. They look nice and pretty much completely disappear in a dark room. Only the small Revel logo on the grill draws any attention what-so-ever since it is silver and shiny :p

So enough about all that stuff. Let's get to the sound!
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
As I said, I have a small theatre with a 10 foot distance from the primary listening/viewing position to the front wall. And that's a good thing for these speakers because they will definitely reach their output limits in a larger room.

I'll just cut right to the chace and say that Revel's specs are spot on. They say you can pump 125-150 Watts into them and that seems right about perfect. No trouble hitting 85dB average levels at the seat and cranking them to hit 105dB peaks (which would call for around 100Watts at this seating distance and the stated efficiency of the speakers) basically had the speakers tapping out with the high frequencies getting very shrill and the high end of the midrange starting to sound really "crunchy" and brittle. In other words, they're about what you'd expect just by looking at them. Four 3 inch drivers and a 1 inch tweeter in a very small, light-weight package just isn't meant for a large room! But in my small room, from a little under 10 feet away, they can just barely hit reference volume, and I honestly wouldn't want to push them an inch further!

The other obvious thing - and again, Revel's specs are spot on - is that there is no bass to speak of with these speakers and the recommended 110Hz cross-over is exactly right. That's definitely on the high side, and makes it so that I'd definitely want a subwoofer at the front of the room so as to mitigate localization of the bass as being separate from the speakers. With a good sub that can play flat up to 200Hz though, the blend works perfectly with the 110Hz cross-over. I'd say a mid-bass module placed up front would work very well for anyone who needs to place their low bass subwoofer elsewhere in the room.

So there are definitely some limitations with these speakers, but I consider those limitations fair. Not just because of the price point and physical size, but also because Revel plainly states the specs and, so far as I can tell, those specs are accurate. They're not trying to claim deep bass extension or massive output capabilities, so you're getting what Revel claims - nothing more, but also nothing less. Seems fair.

So let's get to what I like about these speakers. First up, I tend to focus a lot on tweeters when I listen. The "MCC" Revel tweeter here isn't the best I've heard, but it's impressive. Very nicely extended top end with good delineation and detail. It's got a little bit of "sizzle" and does start to sound sibilant and compressed when you really crank up the volume. But overall, I like that it doesn't roll off the highs and the separation between notes and the "air" was nicely present - better than a lot of speakers at this price point.

Where these speakers shine though is the midrange. The M10 and C10 are 2.5 way designs with twin 3" mid-range/mid-bass drivers and additional twin 3" mid-bass only drivers. Sticking my ear right up against the speakers and hearing each driver pseudo-individually, I found what makes the C10 different from the M10 (other than the position of the binding posts and the little Revel logo on the front :p ) It seems that the C10 puts both mid-range/mid-bass drivers on the right hand side and both mid-bass only drivers on the left, whereas the M10 vertical speakers have a mirrored placement as you would expect (one mid-range/mid-bass above the tweeter and one below and then one mid-bass only driver above and below each mid-range driver). Having the mid-range drivers both on the right hand side seems to be what makes the C10 "intended for horizontal installation" as Revel puts it.

And this little tweak works! I found that standing above or laying below the level of the tweeter changed the timbre and voice of the M10 vertical speakers - as one would expect with a WMTMW design. But the C10's sound changed much less dramatically when moving side-to-side, which is excellent! The high frequencies naturally rolled off a bit and there was some change to the timbre, but it wasn't anything like putting an M10 on its side. Like I said, a lot of other on-wall systems from other brands are just three completely identical speakers and the center doesn't match sonically when it's horizontal. Revel's simple solution works. It isn't completely flawless, but it's a much better sonic match for anyone who is sitting to either side of dead center.

Now the unexpectedly good stuff. The imaging and soundstage was better than expected. Again, not the best I've ever heard, but better than what I expected from such small, light-weight speakers with such compromised placement. There was even soundstage depth, which really made be pretty impressed!

Again, the big strength is being able to move around the seating area while maintaining very good timbre and voice consistency. With such narrow cabinets, there's virtually no diffraction and very little to alter the sound as you move off axis. You're limited vertically with the M10 speakers, but with the C10, I found I could stand almost on top of the speaker or lay right beneath it and the sound changed very little. In other words, it's a darn good center speaker. It honestly does the job about as well as one could hope for given an on-wall placement.

Voices and guitars especially took on that lovely "uncanny" sense of realism. Revel seems to have focused on getting the midrange right with these speakers and I'd say they succeeded.

The mid-bass though has some quibbles, but I found it's mostly placement related. What I found is that these really are on-wall speakers. The M10 come with some stand options and the C10 comes with a little rubberized "foot". I tried them out with them sitting on the TV stand and the sound changed rather dramatically. With the C10 on the TV stand, there was a slight "cupping" effect to the sound and amplification of the mid-bass (as you would expect from having an additional boundary so close). What made the change stand out was that the M10 sound didn't change nearly as much. With the midrange and tweeter drivers further away from the TV stand boundary, they didn't take on this "cupping" effect or gain the same amplification of the mid-bass. The result was that the C10 no longer sounded nearly identical to the M10 - an effect that I absolutely hate and plagues so many speaker systems.

What I found as a reasonable solution for anyone who might use these Revel speakers in such a setup was to use the smaller M8 speakers for the front channels instead. With the M8s sitting directly on the TV stand, the bottom midrange/mid-bass driver was now just as close as the C10's drivers, so the amplification of the mid-bass was about equal and the timbre matched much more closely than with the taller M10 speakers.

On the wall is where the M10 and C10 combo shines though. With the C10 up off the floor and no TV stand beneath it, its sound really matches the M10 speakers well and I get those nice, nearly flawless pans across the front and no "cupping" effect on voices or mid-bass. For anyone using these speakers on their stands or "feet", I'd recommend using the M8s up front instead and keeping them as close to the TV stand as the C10 center.

So overall? Good speakers. Better than pretty much all the other on-wall alternatives. A bit surprising in that they managed to retain some soundstage depth and a really good sonic match across the front when mounted on the wall. If you were actually paying $500 a piece for the M10 and C10 and $250 each for the M8 though? Hard to say they'd be worth it at that price. They basically sound about as good as normal bookshelf speakers in the $250-$300 each range. And they don't have as much bass extension as any normal bookshelf to be sure. But where the higher price is somewhat justified is the tricky on-wall placement. Mount a normal $500 bookshelf speaker to the wall and it won't sound as good as these Revel speakers - so that's where the value lies.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
So the audition has turned into ownership is what you're saying eh? From your description it sounds like you've got a winner in sound quality. As a fellow owner of wall mounts, good sub(S) will take care of their lackings for anything below 80 hz. Oh how I miss having a sub....

Post up some pics once its all said and done!
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Actually, I'm not dead set on keeping them yet :p

For on-walls, they're good. Better than pretty much anything else I've heard so far as on-walls go, at least without a MUCH higher price tag. But ideally, I'd still like higher sound quality for the theatre. I'm actually strongly considering keeping them, perhaps using them in the theatre while I keep looking and then moving them to the bedroom if and when I find/afford something better :p

They're a good deal better than my tSc bedroom speakers. Much more expensive too :p

It's tough. I like my plan. I just don't like any sort of compromise. Of course, compromise is necessary. If only money were no object, eh? lol

I'm trying to figure a way to make the Focal Professional monitors that I like so much work in the theatre, but they're just too big. I dunno. These Revels are certainly good. But they do come with qualifiers. They're good "for being on-walls". They're good "despite how small and light weight they are". I'm not blown away by them, but they are satisfactory, which is higher praise than it seems since my standards are high and pretty much all other on-walls are NOT satisfactory to me :p

But yeah...money. I think what makes sense is to keep and use these for the time being, save up, and maybe get the Paradigm Signatures (if they're even available by then, the W5 are discontinued :( ) or maybe go with some RBH Reference Signature in-walls with the proper backer box to make on-walls out of them ;)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If I ever do any in-wall speakers, I would go with Revel all the way.:D
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Ever think about trying these?

HTS - home

They aren't sexy, but the on-wall variation is 90.5 dB sensitive and they utilize a ribbon tweeter.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I think I'm changing my preference to the BG Neo in-wall speakers.:D

Not that I'm buying any.:D
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Yeah, the Salk HTS won't really work for me in their standard cabinets. I suppose a custom cabinet could be made though ;)

If I could make a speaker that's around a foot deep from front to back work behind the planned AT projection screen, I'd already be going for the Focal Professional studio monitors that I love ;)

Those BG in-walls look interesting. Anyone know if they have a backer box option to make them into on-walls?

Truth be told, I'm returning the Revel on-walls. I want to be jazzed about my theatre speakers, not merely satsified. I'm not knocking the Revel on-walls - they good, better than the competition, surprisingly good in their soundstage and imaging, and certainly appropriate when you need really small, light-weight speakers that you can mount on the wall and have them sound good! But they just don't quite "do it" for me, y'know? I'm not excited to listen to them. They don't make me want to dig out all of my favorite recordings to re-listen to them.

So yeah, they're going back. Given that the Paradigm Signature W5s are too large and too expensive for me, and given that my preferred Focal Pro monitors won't fit due to their depth, I think I'm going to see if I can rustle up some Focal in-wall speakers with the backer box that turns them into on-walls. Usually can't do a full refund on those though - since the installation is more involved. I'll have to see. But when I'm basically thinking of these Revel on-walls as "bedroom speakers", it just made it clear that they're not quite what I'm really hoping for ;)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, the Salk HTS won't really work for me in their standard cabinets. I suppose a custom cabinet could be made though ;)

If I could make a speaker that's around a foot deep from front to back work behind the planned AT projection screen, I'd already be going for the Focal Professional studio monitors that I love ;)

Those BG in-walls look interesting. Anyone know if they have a backer box option to make them into on-walls?

Truth be told, I'm returning the Revel on-walls. I want to be jazzed about my theatre speakers, not merely satsified. I'm not knocking the Revel on-walls - they good, better than the competition, surprisingly good in their soundstage and imaging, and certainly appropriate when you need really small, light-weight speakers that you can mount on the wall and have them sound good! But they just don't quite "do it" for me, y'know? I'm not excited to listen to them. They don't make me want to dig out all of my favorite recordings to re-listen to them.

So yeah, they're going back. Given that the Paradigm Signature W5s are too large and too expensive for me, and given that my preferred Focal Pro monitors won't fit due to their depth, I think I'm going to see if I can rustle up some Focal in-wall speakers with the backer box that turns them into on-walls. Usually can't do a full refund on those though - since the installation is more involved. I'll have to see. But when I'm basically thinking of these Revel on-walls as "bedroom speakers", it just made it clear that they're not quite what I'm really hoping for ;)
I believe InTheIndustry said his BG Radia in-wall speakers (combined with subwoofers) are among the best even compared to towers like Revel Salon2 & KEF 207/2.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Why not look at RBH for their in-walls?

or

If you don't want to do the extra work, why not give these new MK Sound speakers a try. Their representative was on here for a bit, surely he can hook you up and provide the ability to return them if dissatisfied. I'm sure they'd jump on that since there's a number of curious people here as to if the quality has some how dropped.
 
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