Results are in - Monster XP vs Sonocable

[Bloodstriker]

About a week ago, I mentioned that I would be doing a comparison between my Monster Cable XP vs my friend's pricier Sonocable speaker wires. I did not believe that there would be a difference.

Although the methodology was flawed and may influence the results of my findings, please take it for what it is.

We first listened to the Sonocables, then Monster. I definitely heard a difference between the two. I was thinking of attributing this to the placebo effect until my friend described exactly what I was hearing - less detail in specific instruments at specific parts of a track. He also correctly mentioned that I probably was hearing a more muted/laid back sound and that the sound was "less-wide" than the Sonocables. We also both agreed that the Sonocables were brighter in sound.

Shocked, I asked my girlfriend to come listen. We did not tell her what we were doing - just to listen and tell if there was a difference, and if so, what she heard. She's been playing piano for over 10 years, and owns 2 pianos (inlcuding a $35K Steinway) and can hear the differences between pianos and can tell if the top is open or not by ear. She's not very good at describing the sound, but she's got a good ear.

She said that she heard a difference and like the first one better (Which was the Monster). We were a bit taken back and asked her why - She said the other (Sonocables) hurt her ears because they were too high pitched. She went on to describe the same thing that we heard. The only difference was that she preferred the sound of the Monster Cable.

I still couldn't believe this was happening - I was getting set to start the blind testing but then my amp's fuse blew.

A few things could have attributed to the differences:
- I have no idea what guage the Monster XP is. The Sono was 12AWG
- Tips of the Monster could have been corroded as they looked slightly discoloured.
- Different length of wire - about 8 ft. vs 10 ft. (shouldn't really be a big difference.)

Either way, I learned that I should trust what I hear, and ensure that I keep an open mind while thinking critically.

 

[zhimbo]

I was thinking of attributing this to the placebo effect

I'm STILL thinking it's placebo. There's absolutely nothing you described that would indicate otherwise. Everyone in the room had reason to expect, to some degree or other, differences, and there was never any testing that people would reliably make the same judgment if blind to the status of the wires.

There's only one way to know: Blind testing!

Still, this is a useful experience. If blind testing shows your initial impressions are mistaken, then you'll know the true power and subtlety of the placebo effect.

 

[fmw]

Sorry, I could put the three of you in a level matched bias controlled test and the audible differences would disappear like a scared rabbit heading for his hole. I'm very certain of that.

 

[Bloodstriker]

My thought that the placebo effect did not occur in this case or my gf would not have come to describe the same differences that we heard - she was not in the room when we described the differences. I can't think of any other reason as to how she could have come up with the same description as us (albiet with different wording, but describing the same thing).

I'm certain that I could tell which cable is which in the scenario that I setup. The difference was very apparent. Like I said before, the difference could simply be that the cables have different resistance ratings or my cables were corroded.

In terms of putting us through a level matched bias controlled test - I'm all game for that. I would like to know if we're crazy or not. Maybe someone can help me design a test as we intend to keep testing.

My goal is to test and report what my findings are - I understand the science of why cables shouldn't make a difference, and I agree. However, just understanding theory isn't enough for me - I want to know why I heard a difference (assuming it wasn't placebo).

Is there anyway for me to measure the effective resistance of the cables? I wan't to make sure that the two are on an even playing field before I continue.

I noticed that Monster Cable is made in China. Perhaps the copper in the cable isn't really pure copper. I know of a situation where a supplier in China sold 3 tons, of what was thought to be copper, to a large electronics manufaturer. Thirty days later, the copper completely corroded. The electronics company had already used some of it in their products, and a mass recall was done. When they went to the copper supplier with their issues - the supplier completely vanished. The office was gone, the owner couldn't be found.

Then again, who knows? Maybe the copper is fine and I'm imagining things.

 

[fmw]

My thought that the placebo effect did not occur in this case or my gf would not have come to describe the same differences that we heard - she was not in the room when we described the differences. I can't think of any other reason as to how she could have come up with the same description as us (albiet with different wording, but describing the same thing).

I'm certain that I could tell which cable is which in the scenario that I setup. The difference was very apparent. Like I said before, the difference could simply be that the cables have different resistance ratings or my cables were corroded.

In terms of putting us through a level matched bias controlled test - I'm all game for that. I would like to know if we're crazy or not. Maybe someone can help me design a test as we intend to keep testing.

My goal is to test and report what my findings are - I understand the science of why cables shouldn't make a difference, and I agree. However, just understanding theory isn't enough for me - I want to know why I heard a difference (assuming it wasn't placebo).

Is there anyway for me to measure the effective resistance of the cables? I wan't to make sure that the two are on an even playing field before I continue.

I noticed that Monster Cable is made in China. Perhaps the copper in the cable isn't really pure copper. I know of a situation where a supplier in China sold 3 tons, of what was thought to be copper, to a large electronics manufaturer. Thirty days later, the copper completely corroded. The electronics company had already used some of it in their products, and a mass recall was done. When they went to the copper supplier with their issues - the supplier completely vanished. The office was gone, the owner couldn't be found.

Then again, who knows? Maybe the copper is fine and I'm imagining things.

If you knew when cable changes were made and to which cables, then that simply invalidates everything. You don't need to go any further. If you didn't do enough random iterations to generate a decent statistical sample then you don't need to go any further. If you didn't level match, then you don't need to go any further. Trust me. I've tested cables galore. The ones that alter the sound are very rare and very expensive.

Describing sonic differences has nothing to do with bias controlled listening tests. You just need to ID which is which after several random iterations. The right/wrong scores tell the story.

You test the resistance of the cables or anything else that conducts electricity with an ohm meter. Simple as that.

 

[zhimbo]

In terms of putting us through a level matched bias controlled test - I'm all game for that. I would like to know if we're crazy or not. Maybe someone can help me design a test as we intend to keep testing.

You aren't crazy, even if there is no real difference. Deluded, maybe, but that's entirely normal. Humans are like that. Hey, maybe there's a difference. If so, I'd bet one of the cables is damaged or faulty in some way. It's of course possible something is wrong with a cable. If you think something is wrong with the monster cable, get some cheap 14AWG from Radio Shack or something. It will equal the Mega cable, I'll wager.

The following isn't good enough to pass the Randi Challenge, but it's a good start.

Make sure it isn't possible to see which cable is hooked up from the listening position. Draw up a random list (flip a coin a bunch of times, use the random # function in Excel, whatever) of speaker wire A, speaker wire B: ABBBAABABBBAAABA, etc. Make sure there's an equal number of A's and B's.

Choose a test sample where you think you can hear a difference. Go ahead and listen in "un-blind" conditions at first.

Then, One person is in charge of switching the cables (or pretending to switch the cables). Take whatever steps you think are necessary for the other person not to know what switch (if any) is taking place. One person listens, and based on what you heard at first, take a guess which wire you are listening to. Keep track, but don't communicate about this AT ALL until the end. Don't let the person know if they're right or wrong. You shouldn't even know what they're writing.

You may then want to switch roles (using a different random list, unknown to the new listener).

The more trials you do, the better. With 20 trials, 15 or more correct is likely "real", anything less is usually considered "chance". With only 10 trials, you'll shouldn't accept anything less than 9/10 as "real".

see:
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_bino.htm
(The usual acceptable limit is p=.05 or less is considered "real")

 

[zhimbo]

If you didn't level match, then you don't need to go any further. .

Is level matching an issue with wires? Assuming realistic gauge over 8 to 10 foot distances, there really shouldn't be any difference, should there?

 

[Bloodstriker]

Thanks for the feedback zhimbo. My next step is to ensure that the cables have the right resistance, then proceed with the test as you described.

I'll also need to ask what is "level" matching and how would I do this prior to the test? I'm assuming it's some method of ensure the volumes are equal when using both wires?

I'm very open to proving to myself that I didn't hear a difference, but it's pretty hard to explain how my gf detailed the exact same things that we were saying. She didn't know which cable was which. Coincidence? Maybe. Placebo? Maybe. Did she perceive (imagined or not) the same thing as us? Yup. Can anything I did be scientifically validated? Definitely not.

The only thing I can really say is that this has really gotten me curious. I'll let you guys know what happens with the next test.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Everyone in the room had reason to expect, to some degree or other, differences, .

Exactly.
People have evolved and is innate to them to look for differences; cannot be helped.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Either way, I learned that I should trust what I hear, and ensure that I keep an open mind while thinking critically.

Just be careful when you trust your ears and how much
Also, how far open that door is to the mind
Critical think is great indeed.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Is level matching an issue with wires? Assuming realistic gauge over 8 to 10 foot distances, there really shouldn't be any difference, should there?

Should not be at all at that distance and I seriously doubt that Monster which is most likely a 16ga and the 12ga would be an issue either. But, it is always prudent to check, then you know for sure.

 

[bandphan]

Originally Posted by Bloodstriker
Either way, I learned that I should trust what I hear, and ensure that I keep an open mind while thinking critical/



remember, if pilots trusted their eyes more than their instruments, there would be alot more plane crashes

 

[mtrycrafts]

My thought that the placebo effect did not occur in this case or my gf would not have come to describe the same differences that we heard - she was not in the room when we described the differences. I can't think of any other reason as to how she could have come up with the same description as us (albiet with different wording, but describing the same thing).

I'm certain that I could tell which cable is which in the scenario that I setup. The difference was very apparent. Like I said before, the difference could simply be that the cables have different resistance ratings or my cables were corroded.

In terms of putting us through a level matched bias controlled test - I'm all game for that. I would like to know if we're crazy or not. Maybe someone can help me design a test as we intend to keep testing.

My goal is to test and report what my findings are - I understand the science of why cables shouldn't make a difference, and I agree. However, just understanding theory isn't enough for me - I want to know why I heard a difference (assuming it wasn't placebo).

Is there anyway for me to measure the effective resistance of the cables? I wan't to make sure that the two are on an even playing field before I continue.

I noticed that Monster Cable is made in China. Perhaps the copper in the cable isn't really pure copper. I know of a situation where a supplier in China sold 3 tons, of what was thought to be copper, to a large electronics manufaturer. Thirty days later, the copper completely corroded. The electronics company had already used some of it in their products, and a mass recall was done. When they went to the copper supplier with their issues - the supplier completely vanished. The office was gone, the owner couldn't be found.

Then again, who knows? Maybe the copper is fine and I'm imagining things.

You guys are not crazy; it is human nature what you experienced, even if the answers were the same. Humans look for differences by evolution, innate part of all of us.
Why do 75% of people tested will tell you a difference even when the same component, be it a cable or amp, is switched in, no changes were made, only the expectation was there?
Why do people claim a difference exists in wine in a blind test when all they know and see that the price was different, yet, all the wine is the exact same wine.

As to the purity of that copper, that too is insignificant at your lengths. It is the resistance of it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Most cables may sound the same, but there is a possibility that these 2 cables (for whatever reasons) sounded differently. Your girlfriend confirmed the results.

I've heard this before too. These expensive esoteric cables had something to the cables - like passive tone alterations? It's not that they are more accurate. They may just sound differently, which could be for the worse for some and better for others.

I want the sound to be as neutral as possible. I want my frequency response to be close to 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/-3 dB, not +10 dB @ 4 kHz or 80 Hz.

Sure, digital tone controls and esoteric cables may alter the frequency response. Some may like it. Others may hate it.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I'll also need to ask what is "level" matching and how would I do this prior to the test? I'm assuming it's some method of ensure the volumes are equal when using both wires?
.

You need a test disk with sine waves on it, like the Rives and a voltmeter.
Then you play say a 100Hz signal with one cable and measure the voltage at the speaker terminal. Without altering the master volume, swap cables and retest with the same 100Hz and other cable should be the same or withing 1% if the meter can do such small voltage measurements.

Then perhaps repeat with a 1khz tome. The voltage most likely will be different from the 100Hz signal as the meter may not be capable of testing true RMS voltage at such frequencies. That doesn't matter since you are looking for how much difference there is between the two cables only.

If you use a mute feature, may want to check the voltage at 100Hz at the speakers after cycling through the mute to be sure that it reads the same as before, no drifting.

 

[Spkr_Bldr]

I know how things like cables are generally regarded on this site and avsforum. But my advice to you all is keep an open mind. It wasn't until pretty recently that I had a room and system with high enough overall resolution to tell the differences. Once I did though, differences can be immediate and obvious. I've also been hanging out with a lot of the local 2-channel guys, and we've done a few blind cable swap tests. RCA cables are easy to do quick swaps with, and I can usually spot differences in about 15 seconds.

I'm not telling anybody how to think, or to agree that cables can produce improvements. Just that is the search for true high-end really is your goal, then keep an open mind. Somebody down the road when you have the right system and room, you might just thank me.

 

[zhimbo]

But my advice to you all is keep an open mind.

I have both an open mind, and a strong negative opinion utility of expensive speaker wire re: performance.

The opinion comes from past evidence. The open mindedness is the openness to new evidence.

Skepticism and open-mindedness are 100% compatible, not opposites.

 

[Spkr_Bldr]

I have both an open mind, and a strong negative opinion utility of expensive speaker wire re: performance.

The opinion comes from past evidence. The open mindedness is the openness to new evidence.

Skepticism and open-mindedness are 100% compatible, not opposites.

Well I agree with you, I'm a cynic about a lot of the tweaks audiofools promote as well. I'm not necessarily saying the cable has to be expensive, just that there are audible differences in cable that can be easily heard assuming the system and room are capable of conveying the necessary level of resolution to hear them. I don't pay much for my cables beause I make them myself, but I do use quality components. Even with different flavors of Cat5 and Cat6 cables I can hear differences depending on how I made them.

Of course, once your system reaches a certain level, just about any change can make a significant difference. I would assume that most here haven't reached that level yet, which explains a lot of the cynicism. But if that level is your goal, insisting that any speaker wire of proper gauge ... or any decent interconnect is good enough, will hold you back from that goal.

Sorry to sidetrack the thread, just showing solidarity for the OP

 

[mtrycrafts]

...I'm not necessarily saying the cable has to be expensive, just that there are audible differences in cable that can be easily heard assuming the system and room are capable of conveying the necessary level of resolution to hear them.

That is where the rub is. There is no credible evidence to support your hypothesis here, zero. Urban legends abound, anecdotes abound, neither are credible evidence.

If that audibility was so easy, it would have been demonstrated a long time ago by many people.
As a matter of fact, an audiophile tried to claim James Randi's $1mil prize, and in preparation he agreed to be tested at his very expensive system at least 6 figures, special room, etc, Monster cable against his 5 figure cables. FAILED.

But, if you have some credible evidence that can be replicated, by all means, all of us are eager to see and know.

Actually, since you were at AVS or still are, you may have seen that post on that speaker cable testing.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... But my advice to you all is keep an open mind. ...

We are open to credible evidence, not empty claims