Require Amp Advice for Studio 100's.

Thaedium

Thaedium

Audioholic
Hello there,

I recently purchased a pair of Paradigm Studio 100 V4's, and the matching centre CC-690... I only have the fronts hooked up right now, mainly due to the fact the CC-690 is huge... To big for my entertainment stand actually. I think the only real solution will be to buy a Plasma screen HDTV and mount it to the wall :D ... honestly...

Anyways, I'm running them off of my Yamaha HTR-5850 and it sounds wonderful right now. The problem is though, that I'm a music more then video guy... and I want the neighbors down the street to come complain in the middle of the night :rolleyes:. The yammy just isn't cutting it by itself, and I'm worried about driving it too far and potentially abusing my speakers. I would really like an amp capable of driving in the 300 watts range or greater. But I have some questions that I hope some of you might be able to answer in order to narrow my selections down.

Should I have the centre channel amp'd as well? Would it be better to get a multichannel amp like the Bryston 6b SST (3 channels X 300watts @ 8ohms) and run all of it that way, or perhaps some other sort of set up with amp or amps?

A few side questions as well... At the Paradigm website for the info on the Studio 100's it just mentions that the impedance is compatible with 8ohms, which seems clear enough to me - maybe I'm just hopeful though - but can they be ran at 4ohms, and what difference would this make?

Thanks for any suggestions or advice guys.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
if you can afford the bryston 3 x 300w, I'd go for those. (I can only dream about Brystons)

you can't make a speaker run in 4 ohms or whatever ohms because it's been designed to run a specific way, and I don't think we should mess with that.
 
Thaedium

Thaedium

Audioholic
Yes, well affording is an issue. I'm not a particularly wealthy individual, haha. I work for the military and my budget is certainly restricted. But I'm a nut for audio stuff, and I have this habbit of always wanting the best. Honestly, if you could think of more budget orientated options for amps in the same power range I'm all ears. I just have Bryston on the brain cause my good friend is running his Definitive Technology speakers off of a Bryston 4B SST so its a brand I'm familiar with.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
A few side questions as well... At the Paradigm website for the info on the Studio 100's it just mentions that the impedance is compatible with 8ohms, which seems clear enough to me - maybe I'm just hopeful though - but can they be ran at 4ohms, and what difference would this make?
The speaker impedance is a measure of the speaker, not some kind of adjustable feature. The manufacturer is telling you that the nominal or average impedance of the speakers over their useful operating frequency range is around 8 ohms. That means they are an easy load for any modern amplifier to drive. Since they are ported speakers they will have average efficiency.

The amount of power required to operate a pair of 8 ohm speakers would depend on the the efficiency of the speakers, the size of the room involved and the volume level. I have 8 ohm speakers in a 20X22 ft. room (larger than a two car garage.) I also have a powered subwoofer so the power required to drive my main speakers is fairly trivial. I would estimate about 1 or 2 watts per channel at normal listening levels. The peaks might reach 5 or 6 watts per channel. I drive my HT with a receiver that produces 75 watts per channel - serious overkill for my system and my listening habits. 25 watts per channel would be way more than adequate. If I put the volume level at 70%, the system is loud enough to be uncomfortable but the amps are still putting out only 10 watts per channel or so on the average and show no signs of clipping.

Audio enthusiasts don't often understand that adding a mere 3 db (audible to be sure but not a big deal) to the volume level requires doubling the amplifier power. Cutting it by 3 db halves it. So the difference between 100 watt per channel amp at full power and a 25 watt per channel amp at full power is only 6 db. As volume increases in a linear fashion, power consumptiom increases geometrically.

I offer up this information just to suggest to you that if volume is what you want, then it takes gobs of power to produce a relatively small increase in volume. If you hear distortion from your speakers at the listening volume you want, then you don't have enough power because the amps are clipping. Otherwise, you are fine.

Which one to buy? Whichever one has the most sex appeal to you visually or emotionally. They aren't likely to sound much different from each other as long as they aren't clipping. If you have a really large room then you will need lots of power for that and you might want to look at some of the pro audio sound reinforcement amplifiers.
 
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mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
alright, if it were a bit in my budget world ...

Rotel RB1092 500wpc x 2 plus a RB1092 500w x 1 monoblock = 3k+ USD

three Behringer A500's bridged mono 360 x 3 = 540 bucks (manual on and off)

Rotel RMB1095 200w x 5 = 2k

Behringer EP2500 450w x 2 = about 400 bucks (manual on and off)

Parasound NC2250 250w x 2 = 1k+
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
That 6B SST amp is an awesome piece of gear. More then capable of driving those speakers. With it's build quality, reliability, 20 year warranty, added features, consistency, noise floor, and the ability to perform identically with any potential speaker load.

But it's also $6000.
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
Hello, Have you guys forgotten to suggest the best option out there....

Bang for the buck goes out to Emotiva MPS-2
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35837

You can order them with individual amp modules and expand as you go... Im not sure how much it was for just 3 channels...
Email Emotiva and see what they say for a price...

Which makes it a very affordable option...
Ask Greg Gable... thats what he did...

And they are sexy.....

I am running the Rotel 1095, 200 x 5 and I love that amp... but If I were to buy again.. I don't think you need to push 300 watts to them, I don't and I play really loud and its still amazing how clean they are... Great choice on the Studio .v4 lineup... :)
Emotiva !!!!!
 
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Thaedium

Thaedium

Audioholic
The speaker impedance is a measure of the speaker, not some kind of adjustable feature. The manufacturer is telling you that the nominal or average impedance of the speakers over their useful operating frequency range is around 8 ohms. That means they are an easy load for any modern amplifier to drive. Since they are ported speakers they will have average efficiency.

The amount of power required to operate a pair of 8 ohm speakers would depend on the the efficiency of the speakers, the size of the room involved and the volume level. I have 8 ohm speakers in a 20X22 ft. room (larger than a two car garage.) I also have a powered subwoofer so the power required to drive my main speakers is fairly trivial. I would estimate about 1 or 2 watts per channel at normal listening levels. The peaks might reach 5 or 6 watts per channel. I drive my HT with a receiver that produces 75 watts per channel - serious overkill for my system and my listening habits. 25 watts per channel would be way more than adequate. If I put the volume level at 70%, the system is loud enough to be uncomfortable but the amps are still putting out only 10 watts per channel or so on the average and show no signs of clipping.

Audio enthusiasts don't often understand that adding a mere 3 db (audible to be sure but not a big deal) to the volume level requires doubling the amplifier power. Cutting it by 3 db halves it. So the difference between 100 watt per channel amp at full power and a 25 watt per channel amp at full power is only 6 db. As volume increases in a linear fashion, power consumptiom increases geometrically.

I offer up this information just to suggest to you that if volume is what you want, then it takes gobs of power to produce a relatively small increase in volume. If you hear distortion from your speakers at the listening volume you want, then you don't have enough power because the amps are clipping. Otherwise, you are fine.

Which one to buy? Whichever one has the most sex appeal to you visually or emotionally. They aren't likely to sound much different from each other as long as they aren't clipping. If you have a really large room then you will need lots of power for that and you might want to look at some of the pro audio sound reinforcement amplifiers.
fmw, thanks for that information. As an aside from the issue at hand I just want to say that some of the sources of information available around here assume that the reader has at least a solid foundation of knowledge pertaining to the audio world... I really don't it seems, hah. Regarding what you just said then, when amps say for instance, 300 watts a channel at 8ohms, and 500watts a channel at 4ohms, and 1000watts a channel at 2ohms what does this really mean? Because this has me quite confused. In the case of the Studio 100's, which are compatible with 8ohms, from what little I understand, it seems to me that the amp will run at 8ohms at 300w/c for this speaker. After what you wrote, I realize now that I definently got my cables crossed in my understanding here.

Paradigms website also states that the "suitable amplifier power range is 15 - 350 watts". My HTR-5850 runs 105w/cx6 at RMS Output Power (1kHz). Which to me means it falls roughly 1/3rd of the ability of these speakers. Or as you have explained in your post these Studio 100's are potentially capable of running at an extra (roughly) 12db that I cannot achieve under current conditions --- also not factoring in room acoustics. I realize this is not at all accurate to any real science, I'm just trying to get a grasp on the generalities.

Another point of confusion for me is that the site also states, "Maximum Input Power - 210watts" - Then this to me means these speakers can only handle 210 watts from the amp, in which case it kind of conflicts with what they state is suitable amplifier power range. As wouldn't anything that exceeds the 210 watts just be excess and not required?

God... I know so little...

Mike C, thank you for the suggestions, I'll have to start looking at those as options. Sweet.
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
Please explain how the Emotiva MPS-2 is superior, and the best option to the Bryston 6B SST?
The only thing I could possibly see as being superior, is the price...

I don't think I could stomach spending $6000. on amp.... Other then that...

I would never presume to say that your suggestions are off base mazer...;)
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
I would never presume to say that your suggestions are off base mazer...;)
Sorry I just thought you where stating that the Emotiva is a better amp then the Bryston. My bad.

And your right $6000 for an amp for Studio's. :eek: Sonus Faber, Dynaudio :D
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
No sorry's buddy....
Totally agree, If you got that much money burning a hole in your pocket, by all means get the best of the best... I tend to like to steer people towards a better deal... and I think that the Emotiva's are directly inline with that thought process.. Im curious as to what Greg Gable said he paid for his 3 channel amp.

And with the ability to upgrade as you go along... Priceless...

200 watts for those Studios is a excellent power range for them...
 
I

ivanc

Audiophyte
Reply, in order to get started...

I just want to read a component review, and it has been hard to figure out how to get a message sent... Anyway, here goes... Ivan.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
fmw, thanks for that information. As an aside from the issue at hand I just want to say that some of the sources of information available around here assume that the reader has at least a solid foundation of knowledge pertaining to the audio world... I really don't it seems, hah. Regarding what you just said then, when amps say for instance, 300 watts a channel at 8ohms, and 500watts a channel at 4ohms, and 1000watts a channel at 2ohms what does this really mean? Because this has me quite confused. In the case of the Studio 100's, which are compatible with 8ohms, from what little I understand, it seems to me that the amp will run at 8ohms at 300w/c for this speaker. After what you wrote, I realize now that I definently got my cables crossed in my understanding here.
A lower impedance means that the speaker system represents a smaller "obstruction" to the flow of current. Impedance is like resistance except that it is an AC measurement. 4 ohm speakers will draw more current than 8 ohm speakers. Since power (watts) is voltage X current that's why the amp will push more power into a 4 ohm load than an 8 ohm load. There are limitations - the main one is the power supply's ability to deliver that current. As we get to lower impedances we hit the wall, so to speak, of the power supply's ability to deliver all the current. The 8 ohm speakers, then, represent an easier load for the amplifer power supply to handle.

In practice either 4, 6 or 8 ohms should not be a problem with any modern amplifier of competent design and quality. There have been monster amplifers developed with gigantic power supplies capable of delivering power to 1 and 2 ohm loads but, obviously, they aren't necessary for your speakers.


Paradigms website also states that the "suitable amplifier power range is 15 - 350 watts". My HTR-5850 runs 105w/cx6 at RMS Output Power (1kHz). Which to me means it falls roughly 1/3rd of the ability of these speakers. Or as you have explained in your post these Studio 100's are potentially capable of running at an extra (roughly) 12db that I cannot achieve under current conditions --- also not factoring in room acoustics. I realize this is not at all accurate to any real science, I'm just trying to get a grasp on the generalities.
Not at all. I believe below you said the speakers can handle up to 210 watts. That is only 3 db (slightly) louder than with 105 watts. I don't know how large your room is but if it is no larger than mine (20X22 feet) 105 watts should produce volume that is uncomfortably loud without clipping. 210 watts would provide an addition 3 db of overhead.

Another point of confusion for me is that the site also states, "Maximum Input Power - 210watts" - Then this to me means these speakers can only handle 210 watts from the amp, in which case it kind of conflicts with what they state is suitable amplifier power range. As wouldn't anything that exceeds the 210 watts just be excess and not required?
It means that, if you apply more than 210 watts for a certain amount of time, you run the risk of destroying the voice coils in the speaker drivers. They get hotter than they should and break. You might get away with very short peaks beyond 210 watts but you would probably harm your speakers with more than a couple of seconds at a higher level of input power.

They are telling you to operate the speakers below that level. In a typical home theater in a typical home, that kind of power might be dangerous to the hearing, not just uncomfortable. You have plenty of power to make loud in most home theaters with your speakers. If you want a fancier amp then be my guest. There are all kinds of them available and you can read the posts from the fanboys recommending theirs.

God... I know so little...
And I can tell you the high end AV industry appreciates that. They wouldn't do much business if their potential customers had any involvment with objective testing.
 
C

cfrizz

Senior Audioholic
Having a powerful amplifier run your speakers benefits the speakers in more important ways then just being able to go louder. It allows the speakers to operate to thier full potential without strain.

You will have greater clarity, better bass, better, clearer vocals & instruments. And it will go louder than you will ever be able to play it. But one of the best benefits of having a powerful amp is I am able to play it at a softer volume & still hear everything clearly!

I went from a 2 channel, to adding a monoblock to finally getting the 5 channel Sunfire that is in my signature. All speakers benefit from more power, so I would get a five channel amp 200wpc or more & be done with it.

Rotel, Sunfire, Parasound, Outlaw, and the other companies named here all make top notch products that will keep your speakers & you happy for years!:)
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
Greg paid $900 for his Emotiva amp. :D
Now thats a steal for a great 3 channel amp, with expansion capabilities to 7 channels... :)
And its very pretty looking.....

If I was on the market for a new amp, that would be the way I would go...
3 channels for the front 3 and let your receiver handle the other channels until you wish to add more cards....

How much are the add on cards each...?
 
Haoleb

Haoleb

Audioholic Field Marshall
Take a look at a used Odyssey HT3. Shouldnt be more than about 1500 used, Not quite 300wpc but I cant imagine you running out of steam with it.
 
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