Remote Failure Can Mimic Serious AVR and AVP failure! Also Great Service from Remotes.com

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Honestly, I would never have considered this a possibility.

Of late the Marantz AV 7701 in our family room had given heavy hints it was on the way out.

It was not responding well to some remote functions, mainly the volume at first, then the on Off switch. There was a lot of clicking and delay changing channels. On going back to TV function, there would be purple streaks across the screen, which you could get rid of by turning the AVP on and off. Finally even touching the volume on the remote the receiver would lock up. A soft reset would resolve the problem. In addition making any changes via the set up menu was inclined to result in a lock up. All these lock ups were severe and you could not even turn the receiver off, except by pulling the plug.

Well I have another AV 7701 in our Great room, so just on a hunch, I took the remote from the Family room down to the Great room. Much to my surprise the remote caused the same problem on the other unit.

A new remote RC016SR was not available from Marantz and it is discontinued, and none were to be had on eBay.

So after looking at the praises heaped on Remotes.com, I decided to order a replacement from them. It is a totally redesigned remote and looks nothing like the original. However it is very well made, and heavier then the original, with a sliding cover to get to most of the functions like inputs set up etc.

I received the remote today. It came with batteries installed, and worked perfectly right away. The family room AV 7701 now works perfectly with no glitches and free of lots of relay clicks changing inputs. The remote cost me 34.85.

I post this here, as unless I had two identical AVPs, I would never have guessed the remote was responsible for all this serious and ominous malfunction. I would never have suggested to a member with these problems to replace the remote. To be honest, unless I had two of these units, and given their age, I think this one would have gone to the recycling center by now.

So we now have to add faults in a remote as a cause of serious AVP and AVR malfunction. I hate to think how many times we may not have considered this possibility when giving advice over the years.

I regard this as one of the most significant posts I have ever made on this forum. It has truly dumfounded me.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Yeah, wow. Malfunctions like that can lead to the assumption that the whole unit is toasted!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Yeah, wow. Malfunctions like that can lead to the assumption that the whole unit is toasted!
Yes, I have no idea how many of these we have missed. I guess we have to add remote malfunction as a cause of AVR and AVP gremlins, even lock ups. This has been nowhere near my radar previously, I regard this as a significant learning experience.

So before trashing one of these units order a remote from Remotes.com! Most people are not going to have two identical units in use at the same time. But for that lucky circumstance, I would never have connected remote failure to these malfunctions. Until proved otherwise we have to suspect this is more common than realized. I suppose faulty data from the remote must really confuse the central logic.
 
W

warnerwh

Full Audioholic
This is the first I've ever heard of this. Something to keep in mind. Thanks for the info.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I never use the OEM remotes. I've always replaced them with Logitech Harmony remotes. As trite as this sounds, I've never had that kind of an issue before. Buttons wearing out is a problem but I've got repair kits for that issue too. My kids and their spouses laugh at me for the stockpile of Logitech remotes and repair kits. I love the balance and fit and finish of their remotes as well as the easy intuitive interface required to program them.

I do understand how a failing remote can mimick a failing AVR. TLS, I remember you stating in earlier posts that your Marantz AVR was on the way out. Im happy you discovered it was the remote and not the AVR.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Honestly, I would never have considered this a possibility.

Of late the Marantz AV 7701 in our family room had given heavy hints it was on the way out.

It was not responding well to some remote functions, mainly the volume at first, then the on Off switch. There was a lot of clicking and delay changing channels. On going back to TV function, there would be purple streaks across the screen, which you could get rid of by turning the AVP on and off. Finally even touching the volume on the remote the receiver would lock up. A soft reset would resolve the problem. In addition making any changes via the set up menu was inclined to result in a lock up. All these lock ups were severe and you could not even turn the receiver off, except by pulling the plug.

Well I have another AV 7701 in our Great room, so just on a hunch, I took the remote from the Family room down to the Great room. Much to my surprise the remote caused the same problem on the other unit.

A new remote RC016SR was not available from Marantz and it is discontinued, and none were to be had on eBay.

So after looking at the praises heaped on Remotes.com, I decided to order a replacement from them. It is a totally redesigned remote and looks nothing like the original. However it is very well made, and heavier then the original, with a sliding cover to get to most of the functions like inputs set up etc.

I received the remote today. It came with batteries installed, and worked perfectly right away. The family room AV 7701 now works perfectly with no glitches and free of lots of relay clicks changing inputs. The remote cost me 34.85.

I post this here, as unless I had two identical AVPs, I would never have guessed the remote was responsible for all this serious and ominous malfunction. I would never have suggested to a member with these problems to replace the remote. To be honest, unless I had two of these units, and given their age, I think this one would have gone to the recycling center by now.

So we now have to add faults in a remote as a cause of serious AVP and AVR malfunction. I hate to think how many times we may not have considered this possibility when giving advice over the years.

I regard this as one of the most significant posts I have ever made on this forum. It has truly dumfounded me.
If this happens again, you also have the option of using a smart phone app to control the AVR, if for no other reason than to check its functionality.

The most common causes of remote control button failure is food getting onto the rubber mat, between the mat and the board it lays on. These have semi-conductive rubber and need to be clean- if you can disassemble the remote, you could clean the backside of the rubber mat with denatured alcohol- I have done that many times.

If the AVR locked up from physical contact, it was probably due to static electricity- touch it again and it should react the same way unless the humidity in your place has increased.

Old batteries are another reason for remotes to stop working properly, even if they were recently replaced.

I have seen many remotes fail but rarely see an AVR stop reacting to good IR/IP/RS-232 commands.

SIB-KIS.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
like modern day appliances, nothing lasts like it used to. The greater the sophistication / complexity the sooner it's likely to fail...….. :mad:
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
If this happens again, you also have the option of using a smart phone app to control the AVR, if for no other reason than to check its functionality.

The most common causes of remote control button failure is food getting onto the rubber mat, between the mat and the board it lays on. These have semi-conductive rubber and need to be clean- if you can disassemble the remote, you could clean the backside of the rubber mat with denatured alcohol- I have done that many times.

If the AVR locked up from physical contact, it was probably due to static electricity- touch it again and it should react the same way unless the humidity in your place has increased.

Old batteries are another reason for remotes to stop working properly, even if they were recently replaced.

I have seen many remotes fail but rarely see an AVR stop reacting to good IR/IP/RS-232 commands.

SIB-KIS.
As far as I can tell this remote does not come apart. I do not see any screws, not even in the battery box. Changing batteries several times did not change the situation.
I don't think the remote was ever abused. The strangest thing was using the volume control on the remote. The would immediately lock up the AVP, and you had to do a soft reset. Somehow, the remote was sending corrupted data, that caused the AVP to malfunction. The other issue was how it delayed the picture getting up on the screen when switching to cable TV and the purple streaking. You had to turn the AVP off and turn it on again leaving it in the Cable box input, then everything was OK. Anyhow it works perfectly with the new remote, and it did with the one from downstairs, after I realized the remote was causing this havoc.
If I had not had two identical units, I very much doubt I would have realized the fault was in the remote and not the AVP.

I have to call this a learning experience for sure.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
As far as I can tell this remote does not come apart. I do not see any screws, not even in the battery box. Changing batteries several times did not change the situation.
I don't think the remote was ever abused. The strangest thing was using the volume control on the remote. The would immediately lock up the AVP, and you had to do a soft reset. Somehow, the remote was sending corrupted data, that caused the AVP to malfunction. The other issue was how it delayed the picture getting up on the screen when switching to cable TV and the purple streaking. You had to turn the AVP off and turn it on again leaving it in the Cable box input, then everything was OK. Anyhow it works perfectly with the new remote, and it did with the one from downstairs, after I realized the remote was causing this havoc.
If I had not had two identical units, I very much doubt I would have realized the fault was in the remote and not the AVP.

I have to call this a learning experience for sure.
I remember you talking about that unit and saying you thought it was on its last legs. That was a while ago too.

I would never have expected a faulty remote to manifest what looks like failure issues of the device like that.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Yes, I have no idea how many of these we have missed. I guess we have to add remote malfunction as a cause of AVR and AVP gremlins, even lock ups. This has been nowhere near my radar previously, I regard this as a significant learning experience.

So before trashing one of these units order a remote from Remotes.com! Most people are not going to have two identical units in use at the same time. But for that lucky circumstance, I would never have connected remote failure to these malfunctions. Until proved otherwise we have to suspect this is more common than realized. I suppose faulty data from the remote must really confuse the central logic.
This is a good reason for bringing B&M stores back- those of us who work with these regularly have seen more problems than a consumer-based forum would ever encounter.

Last week, I went to check a new customer's system because he cold-called to tell me that his subwoofer wasn't working (he clearly didn't RTFM and doesn't know how to set up an AVR). He had called the week before after finding my number online and after describing the issue, I asked him to do a few things as an initial troubleshooting measure- the sub worked, but he couldn't hear it. I looked and its level control was at about 10:00, so I turned it up and when I went into the AVR's menu, I saw that the sub level was -4dB, so I raised it. That cured his problem but then, he mentioned that his original TV remote didn't always work and the remote for another Samsung TV DID, I opened the battery cover on the faulty one and showed him the corrosion on one of the battery contacts. Once I scraped a bit of it off, it worked as new.

People need to read the troubleshooting section of their manuals when problems arise but even more important- read the manual before doing ANYTHING with the new equipment.

IR commands are in, or can be changed to hexadecimal word strings- you're probably familiar with some command logic, so you would know that it has a way to identify the manufacturer at the front and back of the command and the rest is devoted to the command itself and the length is due to the large number of codes needed for all of the commands used by the various manufacturers. Another thing to consider is the fact that the number of IR control processor manufacturers is small and they make these to be used by any manufacturer who wants their devices, which can result in the remote from one brand operating equipment with another brand name.

Here's an edited reply to a question about IR codes on an installer's forum-

"Here's a sample Pronto code:

0000 0048 0000 0018 00c0 00c2 0030 0092 0030 0092 0030 0031 0030 0092 0030 0092 0030 0092 0030 0092 0030 0092 0030 0031 0030 0031 0030 0031 0030 0031 0030 0031 0030 0092 0030 0031 0030 0031 0030 0031 0030 0031 0030 0031 0030 0092 0030 0092 0030 0092 0030 0879

This was not converted by anything other than the Pronto that I used to learn it. Any other learning device I know also outputs codes like this (if the software has provisions for editing the IR code itself; some do not)."

Some universal remote companies prefer(ed) to use binary, some use hex and some make it easy to learn commands from an OEM remote, some don't. Harmony is the only company I have seen who would/could read a new command as it was being learned, compare it to existing codes and make repairs if it was faulty. They're also the ones who explained that the reason the Pioneer commerical plasma TV was responding to the commands for a Digital Watchdog surveillance camera DVR- they both use a Toshiba IR control processor. The commands are set, the names aren't- this is the reason the Pioneer menu locked when I pressed a button on the DVR remote that would have nothing to do with that command for a TV.

Bottom line, these codes have some redundancy, but if some words are corrupt or missing, it won't do what is needed.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
As far as I can tell this remote does not come apart. I do not see any screws, not even in the battery box. Changing batteries several times did not change the situation.
I don't think the remote was ever abused. The strangest thing was using the volume control on the remote. The would immediately lock up the AVP, and you had to do a soft reset. Somehow, the remote was sending corrupted data, that caused the AVP to malfunction. The other issue was how it delayed the picture getting up on the screen when switching to cable TV and the purple streaking. You had to turn the AVP off and turn it on again leaving it in the Cable box input, then everything was OK. Anyhow it works perfectly with the new remote, and it did with the one from downstairs, after I realized the remote was causing this havoc.
If I had not had two identical units, I very much doubt I would have realized the fault was in the remote and not the AVP.

I have to call this a learning experience for sure.
Many don't have screws, some need a special tool, some are assembled with some kind of cement-

Unless you can disassemble the remote, you won't be able to know if it has some kind of contaminant but now that you have a working remote, you can open the faulty one and see, for sure.

Not that I'm accusing anyone of anything, but I have seen many remotes that didn't work, but some had buttons that would stay in the depressed position and it wouldn't usually make the equipment do what the buttons were assigned to do. When I could open the remotes, I usually found that some kind of liquid had made its way in and was preventing the needed contact.

Another reason these can fail is do to the construction- some brands use miniature switches (these are terrible and can easily fail- often, from someone pressing too hard), some use the semi-conductive plastic I mentioned before and others use a bubble contact, like the soft buttons at a fast food ordering station. The latter can physically fail and that makes the Copper traces break- if that happens, it can't make contact and that won't trigger the processor sending the command.

As I had previously written- your AVPs can be operated through the smart phone app if they're connected to your network- that's where I usually start with troubleshooting remote controls, whenever I can. I used the app when I was troubleshooting the system for the new customer and I showed him that he has options for making some adjustments.

I don't carry spare remotes, so this is the first best option. I do, however, have a couple of cheap Harmony remotes and I can add a device to one of the accounts i have in their dealer portal, so it only takes a few minutes for me to be able to do this.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Glad everything is fixed. A phone as a remote is only an emergency work around. I prefer a remote. :)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Remotes are likely the achilles heel of a lot of modern av gear over time, might be a good idea to stock up on purchase with a spare. Universal remotes or appropriate apps might work too....and I also have taken apart Harmony remotes (600/650 models for the most part) as they use some types of contacts under the buttons that wear off the conductive coating in time. No screws to take them apart, but a guitar pick works nicely to release the clamshell. I did have a very old remote on a Denon 3808 die, but its replacement was still available, haven't tried very hard to take it apart (tried briefly and it was stubborn). I've not had anything like TLS' issues with odd performance like that, tho will keep it in mind....
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Yes, I've had remotes fail and know how to clean the contacts inside, but I have never seen a remote scramble a receiver like that before. Really strange. That's a software / firmware issue as well, in my eyes, as a properly designed AVR should ignore improperly formatted remote signals.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I never use the OEM remotes. I've always replaced them with Logitech Harmony remotes. As trite as this sounds, I've never had that kind of an issue before. Buttons wearing out is a problem but I've got repair kits for that issue too. My kids and their spouses laugh at me for the stockpile of Logitech remotes and repair kits. I love the balance and fit and finish of their remotes as well as the easy intuitive interface required to program them.

I do understand how a failing remote can mimick a failing AVR. TLS, I remember you stating in earlier posts that your Marantz AVR was on the way out. Im happy you discovered it was the remote and not the AVR.
Same here. I bought three extras when Logitech discontinued them.

A remote causing all of this isn't something I would have ever thought to check though. Glad everything worked out.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I did buy extra AVR remotes for my 2017 Yamahas off Amazon for $30 because I wanted the ability to power the TV off and on separately from HDMI doing it. (2070/3070 remotes have that and work with the lower models of same era such as 770 and 681). But definitely nice having spares either way.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Glad everything is fixed. A phone as a remote is only an emergency work around. I prefer a remote. :)
The phone app for Marantz is pretty decent, Denon may have given up but EVERYTHING should be IP controllable, IMO. A universal remote app would be fine if someone would come up with a really good one but part of the problem with using a tablet or phone is that they shut off after a minute or whatever is set by the user and it takes so long to wake up.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
The phone app for Marantz is pretty decent, Denon may have given up but EVERYTHING should be IP controllable, IMO. A universal remote app would be fine if someone would come up with a really good one but part of the problem with using a tablet or phone is that they shut off after a minute or whatever is set by the user and it takes so long to wake up.
The issue for me is I work from home and I’m on my phone most of the day and oncall too. So the phone is occupied with my other uses.

The Yamaha phone app is nice for sure though.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
The issue for me is I work from home and I’m on my phone most of the day and oncall too. So the phone is occupied with my other uses.

The Yamaha phone app is nice for sure though.
I don't care what anyone says, touchscreen devices may make good, fancy looking remotes, but I don't want to have to turn on a screen to change the volume. Too many steps, and makes your eyes water in a dark theater room.

That said, I'm also a guy that has a tablet just for controlling things in their house, but not really the TV. Suppose I could though...
 
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