REL T1 or T5 - apples to oranges??

[tigagig]

Hello - I'm in the market for a new sub, and am very interested in REL - mainly due to the connection options they offer. Unfortunately, my budget is rather small - about $600. I will use this in a system for both music and HT.

Comparing the T1 to the T5 may not be an 'apples to apples' comparison in terms of size and specs for these subs, but since the T1 is a little older and (I think) being discontinued, it can be purchased new for about $100 less than the smaller T5. So the reason for the comparison is really comparable price tags.

T1 - Larger 10" driver w/10" passive; 300 w; older model
T5 - Smaller 8" driver; sealed box; 125 w; newer model

For roughly the same price (in the new-purchase market) I can get either of these. Any opinions as to which is better? Seems like the T1 would be a better deal, but does the fact that the T5 is a newer model make it a better buy even though it's smaller? (ie: is the newer smaller model better than the older larger one?)

I know room size matters, etc But, I'm not expecting/wanting this sub to lift my house up or even rattle the windows. I want quality over quantity here, to go with my current, very modest system:

Rotel RSX 1056 Receiver
Oppo BD83 BluRay player
DirectTV HD DVR
NHT SupperTwo mains
NHT Center & Surrounds (5.1)
NHT SW10 Sub (now deceased)

Any thoughts, suggestions, comments would be most welcome! Thank you all very much for any help you can offer.
Thanks!!

 

[GranteedEV]

Honestly, I don't think "connection options" should be a selling point. With your budget you could easily get a Rythmik FV12 for example.

If your electronics aren't doing what they are expect to do, then address that aspect at the core - the subwoofer is a transducer, and it shouldn't be compromised in that aspect to compensate for shortcomings in the receiver or what-have-you.

That's my advice.

 

[Seth=L]

You're receiver has the most standard of Subwoofer connections. I wouldn't go as far to say the high level input vs line level input on the REL subs is nonsense, but it's near to. Why they "advise" you to connect the subwoofer they way they do seems like a waste of time to me. Running fronts full range is rarely beneficial sonically and is never going to benefit the amplifier. I'd probably avoid small subs with passive radiators as they exibit characteristics of a small ported subwoofer more often than not which means an abrupt roll off in the mid 30Hz range. If you must buy a REL I believe their sealed subs are more revered than the active/passive concoctions.

I recommend the SVS SB12-NSD, or the SB12-Plus if you can find one. The SB12-Plus has some nice features they decided to omit from the revised SB12-NSD such as a parametric EQ which can help you tailor a flatter more acoustically correct response within your listening space.

 

[tigagig]

Hmmm - Thank you for the reply and the info, but I'm a little confused about why you think my electronics are not doing what I expect. Did I give that impression in my post, or is this your opinion about the stuff I've got? (either is fine, just curious!)

I'll be the first to admit my system is not very fancy, powerful, or high-end, but I'm very happy with the equipment I have. As for the connection options I mentioned about the REL, I was talking about the ability to connect both the .1 LFE channel and the high-level speaker output simultaneously and control them with separate gain controls.

This seems like it would be a nice set up for someone (like me) who wants a little more fullness (is that a word?? out of music, and still have some bass in movies as well. I'm running music in a pure-direct mode with all analog connections, so really get nothing coming out of the LFE-out to the sub. I know I can switch to a digital processed output that will provide sub-out, but I think keeping the signal out of the digital processing sounds better - if that makes any sense.... The high-level speaker connection provided by the REL seems like the only or best way integrate a sub into this type of set up for music.

I'm a little new to all this, so please bear with me if it sounds like I don't really know what I'm talking about (I really probably don't!). I'm just going off what I've been reading online on the topic, and what I think I want out of my system.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Seth=L]

He probably just read what kind of speakers you have.

"NHT SUPPER TWOS"

As in, he's going to eat your speakers for supper.

On a serious note I'm sure he thought the same thing I did, that your receiver must be somehow deficient if you require a subwoofer with "special accomodations". I remembered shortly after reading it that the RELs allow a dual connection scheme where the LFE input bypasses the crossover controls and the high level inputs utilize the crossover to match the front speakers. I find this to be unnecessary if one can just accept setting the front speakers to small. This will save money on cables and will get rid of a sensless waste of power and possibility for sonic abnormalities.

 

[tigagig]

Yeah, I know.... might be time to upgrade the Super Twos....

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I set the main speakers to small and push some of the work to the sub, the only way to take advantage of this for music would be to use the digital crossovers in the receiver correct? I like using the "Analog Bypass" on the Rotel for music, as it provides pure analog stereo with a full range signal and no digital processing.

I've tried it both ways: analog bypass, and regular "2-channel" mode which includes the digital crossover and sub signal. I prefer the analog, but do wish my little NHT's had more bass presence. Hence, my reasoning for considering REL....

Is my logic way off here? (I can take it!)

 

[timoteo]

So do you want to have your NHTs ran Small with the sub for movies but for music you want them in Pure Direct mode but still have the sub help them out?

So you want to have the speaker level connection so the sub can crossover to the speakers internally (in the subs plate amp) when PureDirect is engaged but then have the Rotel send the sub info via LFE input when watching a movie?

 

[tigagig]

Yes - you got it! The Rotel will do this easily, I'm just looking for a sub that supports this. I guess I must be mostly alone in wanting this approach, since it seems like most subs are not set up to handle this.

Honestly, I have not heard/auditioned any set up like this, but from what I've read, it just seems so logical to me to do this. Feels like you get the best of both worlds with this and more control. Am I missing something?

I'm planning to visit a stereo shop on Friday that has RELs set up to demo, so hopefully that will help! (I live in the sticks, so must drive at least an hour to get to any decent shops!)

Thanks for the comments, feedback, and help!!

 

[Seth=L]

That's what I'm gathering as well.

The placebo effect is likely at work here. Because your receiver has a pure direct mode your brain is telling you this feature must provide enhanced sonics. It may lower the signal to noise ratio a small amount but not likely enough to be noticeable when you're listening to music. What crossover point is the receiver set at?

 

[GranteedEV]

Did I give that impression in my post, or is this your opinion about the stuff I've got? (either is fine, just curious!)

You gave the impression that you needed a subwoofer with connection options, when that's something that you shouldn't be concerning yourself with. Worry about the actual performance.

As for the connection options I mentioned about the REL, I was talking about the ability to connect both the .1 LFE channel and the high-level speaker output simultaneously and control them with separate gain controls.

High Level speaker in/outputs are only for people who are forced into it by circumstance. When possible ALWAYS use line-level connections.

This seems like it would be a nice set up for someone (like me) who wants a little more fullness (is that a word?? out of music, and still have some bass in movies as well.

It sounds like nonsense.

I'm running music in a pure-direct mode with all analog connections, so really get nothing coming out of the LFE-out to the sub. I know I can switch to a digital processed output that will provide sub-out, but I think keeping the signal out of the digital processing sounds better - if that makes any sense....

It doesn't, unless you've got Auto-EQ engaged. The noise floor is higher, but should still be well below the audible threshold at any meaningful distance.

The high-level speaker connection provided by the REL seems like the only or best way integrate a sub into this type of set up for music.

It's not. It's for cheap people who have 1960s stereo receivers and want to add a sub.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I set the main speakers to small and push some of the work to the sub, the only way to take advantage of this for music would be to use the digital crossovers in the receiver correct? I like using the "Analog Bypass" on the Rotel for music, as it provides pure analog stereo with a full range signal and no digital processing.

Nothing is wrong with modern digital processing.

I've tried it both ways: analog bypass, and regular "2-channel" mode which includes the digital crossover and sub signal. I prefer the analog, but do wish my little NHT's had more bass presence. Hence, my reasoning for considering REL....

You might prefer the idea of the analog, but that doesnèt mean you actually prefer the analog.

Now having a crossover might give worse bass compared to setting the speakers to large and having the sub roll in lightly - but that's different from this nonexistant perceived issue of digital vs analog - it's a matter of acoustic interaction.

If your rotel is producing any audible differences between direct mode and non-direct mode with a subwoofer but no EQ or activated processing, then it may be well outdated. At which point again it's an electronics issue and you're just using a band-aid.

I'm planning to visit a stereo shop on Friday that has RELs set up to demo, so hopefully that will help! (I live in the sticks, so must drive at least an hour to get to any decent shops!)

Waste of time. All you'll hear is how that sub plays in THAT room, which is no indication of how it will play in yours. And if it impresses you, you'll end up buying a poor value on a whole.

 

[tigagig]

Well, at the moment, all are running full range since my old sub quit working about 6'mos ago! But before that, I think I had it crossed at 80 hz.

This raises another question that might get us a little off topic, but... I've got the Oppo connected to the Rotel via 5.1 analog, not digital (in addition to the two channel analog connection). By doing this, I have to set range & crossover in both/either the Oppo or the Rotel. I'm a little confused about the best approach here. For 5.1, do I do the speaker and bass setup in the player or the receiver? Or other?

Sorry about all the questions!

 

[Seth=L]

I would use th Rotel's crossover exclusively to avoid irregularities.

 

[3db]

In January or February' issue of Home Theater Magazine, a review was done on a REL sub and REL t recommended connecting it like the OP had stated. To me, the REL is hoaky and I would not want a sub that could not work with just an input from teh LFE or sub out of the receiver. The frequency response of that REL sub was horrid.....Mount Everest had a flatter response. Home Theater Magazine offered a side note explaining the response curve.

To the OP, go for something more solid like SVS, HSU and stay away from REL

 

[Seth=L]

As a general rule from experience (some very recent and a hard lesson learned) is that small subwoofers utilizing passive radiators suffer from a long list of problems. The concept is that a small size subwoofer still has the capability to move lots of air. The fundamental problem with most of them is distortion caused by second order harmtonics. Instead of having just one driver and the cabinet to contend with you have additional passive radiators to deal with. If the radiator flexes, it causes distortion, same for the woofer. Another key problem is the size, no matter how much power or how much "equivalent driver surface area" a 15" cube sub has, it will not accurately portray frequency content much below 30Hz.

I've had a Sunfire truesub and a Definitive SuperCube I and they are picky on placement and lack real depth and clarity. Ported subs that cost half as much perform much better. Sealed subwoofers often have the flatest response for the price and this is done at the sacrifice of extension but for music only this may be ideal.

 

[tigagig]

So do you want to have your NHTs ran Small with the sub for movies but for music you want them in Pure Direct mode but still have the sub help them out?

So you want to have the speaker level connection so the sub can crossover to the speakers internally (in the subs plate amp) when PureDirect is engaged but then have the Rotel send the sub info via LFE input when watching a movie?

Thank you timoteo for summing this up so nicely. Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking of doing. Maybe I'm being suckered in by REL's literature and/or the opinions of the folks selling these, but this approach kinda makes sense to me. It doesn't seem like I'm losing anything, as I still have the LFE input for HT, and I can run music in direct mode to stay in the analog realm. Is this crazy?

I do appreciate all the help from everyone here. Thank you all for your input - it has given me more to think about and consider - (dang-it! I was hoping to have this decision made already....)