Recording band room

[Pyrojoe]

I'm an A/V specialist at a college campus. Most of the classroom setups I design are very straight forward and are more visual based than audio.

Currently I'm specing a design for the Band and choir rooms where the department head wants the ability to record rehearsals, and wants to do so at the highest quality possible. He wants permanently installed mics, and large suspended cabs, and full 20Hz-20kHz range for both.

Both the mics and the speakers are outside of the range of what I've ever purchased before, and was hoping for any advise before proceeding too much further.

My budget for this portion of the project is $3,500. The sound going to the speakers will be line level, so any amps that would need to go with the speakers may be needed (if the speakers aren't powered). I'm thinking probable around 400 watts, but I'm flexible as far as that goes.

Does anyone have any thoughts, on what I should look for, any particular model would be good, what to stay away from, etc. Anything helps.

Thank you.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm an A/V specialist at a college campus. Most of the classroom setups I design are very straight forward and are more visual based than audio.

Currently I'm specing a design for the Band and choir rooms where the department head wants the ability to record rehearsals, and wants to do so at the highest quality possible. He wants permanently installed mics, and large suspended cabs, and full 20Hz-20kHz range for both.

Both the mics and the speakers are outside of the range of what I've ever purchased before, and was hoping for any advise before proceeding too much further.

My budget for this portion of the project is $3,500. The sound going to the speakers will be line level, so any amps that would need to go with the speakers may be needed (if the speakers aren't powered). I'm thinking probable around 400 watts, but I'm flexible as far as that goes.

Does anyone have any thoughts, on what I should look for, any particular model would be good, what to stay away from, etc. Anything helps.

Thank you.

That won't even buy his speakers and barely the microphones, let alone the amps DACs and mix panels and the hard drive recording system and software.

20 to 30 K is a more appropriate budget if he wants that sort of performance.

If you are not used to this type of project then you will need help.

I would have him lower his sights and get realistic.

 

[Pyrojoe]

That won't even buy his speakers and barely the microphones, let alone the amps DACs and mix panels and the hard drive recording system and software.

20 to 30 K is a more appropriate budget if he wants that sort of performance.

If you are not used to this type of project then you will need help.

I would have him lower his sights and get realistic.

everything else is cake and already accounted for. This portion of the budget is just for mics and speakers (and amps)

We want a system good enough to record practice, we're not talking about a professional recording studio with cd quality to sell. Just record and playback rehearsal. That being said, of course we want the best audio we can put together.

I'm thinking 2 mics at <$500 per mic in an XY configuration (110 degrees). 2 speakers (or stacks) at ~$1000 each and ~$500 for an amp. While low, shouldn't be unreasonable.

 

[TLS Guy]

everything else is cake and already accounted for. This portion of the budget is just for mics and speakers (and amps)

We want a system good enough to record practice, we're not talking about a professional recording studio with cd quality to sell. Just record and playback rehearsal. That being said, of course we want the best audio we can put together.

I'm thinking 2 mics at <$500 per mic in an XY configuration (110 degrees). 2 speakers (or stacks) at ~$1000 each and ~$500 for an amp. While low, shouldn't be unreasonable.

Its totally unreasonable.

Times have changed. His problem is he wants his speakers in the band room.

If he would have small near field monitors in his control room that would be one thing.

He wants hung speakers in his band room.

He can not use domestic speakers, they are now all puny and will blow.

Pro speakers are nearly all active with electronic crossovers and amps in the speakers.

This works much better. The leader for this application is Genelec. Their lowest unit with drivers big and powerful enough for his application is 10.5 K

You might just about get away with a couple of these, but I doubt it. It won't play that loud in his band room and you will need a sub.

Any pro speaker, and yes you need a pro speakers or you waste his money, with 12" drivers is going to be at least 10 K for two if it is any good.

The old speakers that used to be made by Altec Lansing, Electrovoice etc, that you saw in these applications years ago are long gone. Looking for old vintage speakers might be a way to stay in budget.

Pro speakers with large drivers are now a very pricey item, if you don't want them to blow the first day.

Domestic and pro speakers are now largely puny with drivers around 6". Near filed monitors in the control room rule.

Essentially you are looking for auditorium pro speakers and these days that will cost you.

For microphones, I suggest you use a spaced omni technique, that will get you a better price performance ratio and a better bass response.

These would be excellent.

Really, large diaphragm mics would be best, but that will get you into a lot more money for anything that is any good. However those Earthworks mic are very good.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Its totally unreasonable.

Times have changed. His problem is he wants his speakers in the band room.

If he would have small near field monitors in his control room that would be one thing.

He wants hung speakers in his band room.

He can not use domestic speakers, they are now all puny and will blow.

Pro speakers are nearly all active with electronic crossovers and amps in the speakers.

This works much better. The leader for this application is Genelec. Their lowest unit with drivers big and powerful enough for his application is 10.5 K

You might just about get away with a couple of these, but I doubt it. It won't play that loud in his band room and you will need a sub.

Any pro speaker, and yes you need a pro speakers or you waste his money, with 12" drivers is going to be at least 10 K for two if it is any good.

The old speakers that used to be made by Altec Lansing, Electrovoice etc, that you saw in these applications years ago are long gone. Looking for old vintage speakers might be a way to stay in budget.

Pro speakers with large drivers are now a very pricey item, if you don't want them to blow the first day.

Domestic and pro speakers are now largely puny with drivers around 6". Near filed monitors in the control room rule.

Essentially you are looking for auditorium pro speakers and these days that will cost you.

For microphones, I suggest you use a spaced omni technique, that will get you a better price performance ratio and a better bass response.

These would be excellent.

Really, large diaphragm mics would be best, but that will get you into a lot more money for anything that is any good. However those Earthworks mic are very good.

Just Curios, TLS - Why go top of the line if what's his boss really wants is best sound $3500 can buy.

I humbly suggest Behringer Pro stuff:
like this powered PA Speakers:
http://www.thedjhouse.com/item/behringer-b1220-dsp-powered/

With understanding what, thats NOT top-of-the-line stuff, but it's plenny good for the buck...

 

[TLS Guy]

Just Curios, TLS - Why go top of the line if what's his boss really wants is best sound $3500 can buy.

I humbly suggest Behringer Pro stuff:
like this powered PA Speakers:
http://www.thedjhouse.com/item/behringer-b1220-dsp-powered/

With understanding what, thats NOT top-of-the-line stuff, but it's plenny good for the buck...

I can't in good conscience recommend low end junk like that for an application like his.

What I recommended was not even middle of the road. Top of the line and you would have at least 30 K in it and probably more.

I never agree to install jink in these kind of jobs.

 

[Pyrojoe]

I can't in good conscience recommend low end junk like that for an application like his.

What I recommended was not even middle of the road. Top of the line and you would have at least 30 K in it and probably more.

I never agree to install jink in these kind of jobs.

I understand your reservations, and I completely agree with you. If I had that much money I'd probably feel better about making the purchasing without coming to a forum like this.

I have a set budget. This is a state institution, and I'm lucky I have as much as I do for this project. My hope is to find some insight from somebody as to the best road to take... Getting more money is not an option. There's not control room. We're talking about an application simply for recording rehearsal. I might be a little over stretching to hope for 400w, but again, I'm flexible there.

Comments such as "large diaphragm would be best" and "I suggest you use a spaced omni technique" are very helpful. I also like that you have offered particular pieces of gear. Other than that most of your comments are not helpful. I understand that I'm working with a low budget, this is something outside of my (or his) control; it was set by a Vice President.

Thank you again for responding.

 

[TLS Guy]

I understand your reservations, and I completely agree with you. If I had that much money I'd probably feel better about making the purchasing without coming to a forum like this.

I have a set budget. This is a state institution, and I'm lucky I have as much as I do for this project. My hope is to find some insight from somebody as to the best road to take... Getting more money is not an option. There's not control room. We're talking about an application simply for recording rehearsal. I might be a little over stretching to hope for 400w, but again, I'm flexible there.

Comments such as "large diaphragm would be best" and "I suggest you use a spaced omni technique" are very helpful. I also like that you have offered particular pieces of gear. Other than that most of your comments are not helpful. I understand that I'm working with a low budget, this is something outside of my (or his) control; it was set by a Vice President.

Thank you again for responding.

In that case for speakers, I would definitely try and buy good vintage ones. You need to avoid modern low priced junk at all costs.

Something like this will fit the bill.

They would hang very well.

Better still would be to be patient and get something like these model 19s with the large sectoral horns.

Altec are a good bet, as parts and repair are readily available from ex employees at Great Plains Audio.

For your budget and your application these types of units are ideal. Modern version of this approach from JBL for instance cost a small fortune.

 

[GranteedEV]

Get in touch with Wayne Parham of Pi Speakers and explain your application. Those speakers should be the most cost-effective, high quality route if you're willing to do the building yourself (well.. you ARE asking in a DIY board ). You will need a compression driver as they are made rugged, and the B&C De250 is an excellent one. The eminence woofers he offers also represent a nice values. He really knows his stuff when it comes to horns so he should definitely be able to guide you the right way.

Otherwise the best commercial option would be a pair of JTR Triple 8s. They should sound pretty darn good, last through anything, and not "break the bank" at the very least. However you said "20hz-20khz and these won't satisfy that caveat. They lack bass below 80hz which means subs would be necessary. And that right there is why TLS guy said it's "impossible with your budget". You can get good speakers, but good FULL RANGE speakers? Without going DIY on the speakers it's probably total insanity. Even something to cover 30hz to 80hz, never mind 20hz, is going to cost you a good 2k+... There's no free lunch unless you DIY.

If choosing those speakers, you would be best off with a 200+ watt pro amp...I like Face Audio amps as I think they're "built to last forever" but anything from Crest, Crown, Peavey, Behringer, Mackie etc should be perfectly fine. Definitely don't blow the budget on an amp, but get something that'll last.

If going DIY, your options will definitely be much easier. The tradeoff is that you actually have to do stuff... you're saving money but NOT time or work.

TLS Guy can probably help you on the mic part... he really knows his stuff when it comes to the recording process O_O

 

[highfigh]

I'm an A/V specialist at a college campus. Most of the classroom setups I design are very straight forward and are more visual based than audio.

Currently I'm specing a design for the Band and choir rooms where the department head wants the ability to record rehearsals, and wants to do so at the highest quality possible. He wants permanently installed mics, and large suspended cabs, and full 20Hz-20kHz range for both.

Both the mics and the speakers are outside of the range of what I've ever purchased before, and was hoping for any advise before proceeding too much further.

My budget for this portion of the project is $3,500. The sound going to the speakers will be line level, so any amps that would need to go with the speakers may be needed (if the speakers aren't powered). I'm thinking probable around 400 watts, but I'm flexible as far as that goes.

Does anyone have any thoughts, on what I should look for, any particular model would be good, what to stay away from, etc. Anything helps.

Thank you.

The department head needs to find out what "highest quality possible" costs. The room design and build would be far above the total budget.

 

[TLS Guy]

The department head needs to find out what "highest quality possible" costs. The room design and build would be far above the total budget.

You have that right.

The real problem is that they want to use a big space for playback and record. That is a very old fashioned way to do it. Things are not geared that way anymore.

What should be done before any money is spent, is to see if there is a small room close to the rehearsal space that could be used to place everything except the mics.

That way an adequate system could be put together within budget.

They way they are going about it is impossible without an insane amount of money being spent. Even then it would not be as good as a dedicated record/monitor space.

If they use a large band room, then speakers and subs are going to be way beyond budget before thinking about mics.

It is how they are going about it that is the crux of the problem here.

 

[Davemcc]

How big is the space anyway? I don't think it's been mentioned.

 

[TLS Guy]

How big is the space anyway? I don't think it's been mentioned.

If it is taking a full high school band it will considerably larger than a domestic space.

If it is a good rehearsal space then it should be reasonably live. Musicians do not hear each other well in a dead space.

This brings up another flaw in their plan. With the minimalist liking which they plan, there will be double reverb time on playback in the same space.

That has the effect of making the playback sound really bad in that space.

So the whole concept is seriously flawed. They really need a small space for playback.

Unless they change their plan fundamentally, they should not spend one cent of public funds. It will be a total waste.