Reciever + Amplifier(s) - Frequency Response, THD, Stability, etc

E

Electrocutor

Audiophyte
Greetings:
I've been doing a ton of research and reading on recievers, amplifiers, and speakers to go with them. There remain a number of unanswered questions and I hope to have those with technical experience help me find some answers. I apologize ahead of time for the length of this post.

To avoid confusion, I will specify a reference reciever, amplifier, and speaker set; but these elements should not affect the nature of my questions.
[ Reciever ] : Denon AVR-4308CI
- URL - usa.denon.com/AVR-4308CI-OM-E_004.pdf
- 140W x 7 @ 8 ohm - 0.05% THD (20Hz - 20kHz)
- 170W x 7 @ 6 ohm - 0.7% THD (1kHz)
- Power Supply = 8.1A
[ Amplifier ] : Outlaw 2200 M-Block
- URL - pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/2200manual.pdf
- 200W x 1 @ 8 ohm - 0.05% THD (20Hz - 20kHz)
- 300W x 1 @ 4 ohm - 0.05% THD (20Hz - 20kHz)
[Speakers ] : Axiom Epic 80 500
- URL - axiomaudio.com/epic80_500specs.html
- Main = 4 ohm; +3/-3(-9)dB; 95dB @ 1W @ 1m
- Surround = 6 ohm; +3/-3(-9)dB; 95bD @ 1W @ 1m
- Center = 6 ohm; +3/-3(-9)dB; 95dB @ 1W @ 1m
- Subwoofer = self-powered (ignored)

Now, on to the questions. I'll try to categorize them to help make responses easier. If possible, please only respond with factual information (not opinions).
[ Reciever ]
A1. Given that the THD at 1kHz is 0.7% at 6 ohm, how high would it be at 20Khz? It almost appears as if the amp is unable to drive even 6 ohm speakers with good quality. By comparison, the Outlaw is able to drive the whole 8-4ohm range with 0.05% for all audible frequencies.

A2. Though it is not designed for it, what kind of THD could I expect when driving 4 ohm speakers from the reciever?

A3. Would this reciever (designed for 8 ohm) be able to sustain 4 ohm speakers _stabley_ (as 4 ohm speakers are likely to drop to 2ohmish)?

A4. With the 8.1A PS, what dB range would I be able to run the system at given the stated 5.1ch speaker set (and not including the amplifier)?

A5. Are the pre-amp outputs of the reciever also suceptible to the frequency response of the reciever (Due, i suspect to the signal processing)?

[ Amplifier ]
B1. If an amplifier is used for each of the main outputs, how do they know what gain to use in order to match the dB of the other speakers (center, surrounds, sub)?

B2. If separate amplifiers are used to drive left and right channels (instead of using a stereo amplifier) what is the possibility of and extent that the dB will vary between the left and right?

B3. Is there any audible sound quality benefit to separating the main channel into HF/LF and using a bi-amp connection to the main speakers if the original source is a combined pre-amp out?

B4. Are there any mono amplifiers available (<$400 @ 150W-200W) with a built-in crossover?

B5. Given that the reciever has increasingly disruptive THD when driving 6 ohms, would using a 7 channel amplifier with a stated 20Hz-20kHz 0.05% THD yield an audible sound quality increase?

[ Speakers ]
C1. If you separate the HF/LF of the main speakers, would driving each half be less of a load on the amplifier with regard to wattage per dB? It seems odd that driving 6 speakers would use the same amount of energy as driving 3. In the case of the stated M80's, both HF and LF would still be 4ohmish.
 
T

tubesaregood

Audioholic
[ Reciever ]
A1. Given that the THD at 1kHz is 0.7% at 6 ohm, how high would it be at 20Khz? It almost appears as if the amp is unable to drive even 6 ohm speakers with good quality. By comparison, the Outlaw is able to drive the whole 8-4ohm range with 0.05% for all audible frequencies.

A2. Though it is not designed for it, what kind of THD could I expect when driving 4 ohm speakers from the reciever?

A3. Would this reciever (designed for 8 ohm) be able to sustain 4 ohm speakers _stabley_ (as 4 ohm speakers are likely to drop to 2ohmish)?

A4. With the 8.1A PS, what dB range would I be able to run the system at given the stated 5.1ch speaker set (and not including the amplifier)?

A5. Are the pre-amp outputs of the reciever also suceptible to the frequency response of the reciever (Due, i suspect to the signal processing)?

[ Amplifier ]
B1. If an amplifier is used for each of the main outputs, how do they know what gain to use in order to match the dB of the other speakers (center, surrounds, sub)?

B2. If separate amplifiers are used to drive left and right channels (instead of using a stereo amplifier) what is the possibility of and extent that the dB will vary between the left and right?

B3. Is there any audible sound quality benefit to separating the main channel into HF/LF and using a bi-amp connection to the main speakers if the original source is a combined pre-amp out?

B4. Are there any mono amplifiers available (<$400 @ 150W-200W) with a built-in crossover?

B5. Given that the reciever has increasingly disruptive THD when driving 6 ohms, would using a 7 channel amplifier with a stated 20Hz-20kHz 0.05% THD yield an audible sound quality increase?

[ Speakers ]
C1. If you separate the HF/LF of the main speakers, would driving each half be less of a load on the amplifier with regard to wattage per dB? It seems odd that driving 6 speakers would use the same amount of energy as driving 3. In the case of the stated M80's, both HF and LF would still be 4ohmish.
A1. Human ears begin to really hear distortion at about 10% THD. Most of the time speakers will always produce much higher levels of distortion than any amplifier, even tube amps. Unless you see the THD values go into the few percent range, I wouldn't worry.

A2. Who knows, they didn't list it. Notice how 8 ohm THD is over the whole frequency range but 6 ohm THD is at 1 KHz?

A3. Maybe.

A4. What you need to do is use the sensitivity ratings of the speakers and the expected power they will receive. These speakers appear to be highly sensitive at 95 dB 1W/1m. I imagine with this receiver and these speakers you should be able to achieve on the order of 110 - 113 dB, possibly slightly higher, without major issue. Speaker sensitivity affects SPL far more than amplifiers do. For example, going from 50 watts to 100 watts means +3dB, most people can't hear differences much smaller than this. But a speaker with a 95dB sensitivity requires half the power that a 92dB speaker would need to produce the same SPL's. Doubling the volume on the amplifier end of things requires TEN TIMES the power. Keep in mind here that a 90dB sensitivity is starting to get into the higher sensitivity range. Many acoustic suspension systems have 85dB sensitivities.

A5. They might be, they might not be. My guess would be no.

B1. They wouldn't unless there was some kind of feedback about the SPL of each individual speaker.

B2. Very high, because you could have the volume controls set differently. Seriously though, if they're the same amplifier using components made by the same people, variance should be extremely low. Different amps is a different story.

B3. No. Next question!

B4. Yes, in fact. I know of only one or two, the one I can think of is the dbx MPA-150 (this amp is an eBay special seeing as they haven't been made for about 20 years now). 150 watt stereo input mono output with low pass crossover, but not variable.

B5. Not because of THD alone. Thing to remember about THD is that you may well throw it out the window most of the time. I can't remember exactly why but apparently THD is a poor indicator of anything, where a THD+N (noise) rating tells you more. That and the fact that companies like to list THD in sneaky ways, like they did here. Check Wikipedia, the article there is decent.

C1. Theoretically, the best amplifiers will be able to "double down" when the impedance is halved (this is what's theoretically supposed to happen anyway). That is, with half the load the amplifier should be putting out twice the current, and therefore power since they run at a constant voltage. So theoretically biamping on two discrete amplifiers as opposed to one would give you 100 watts x 2 amplifiers @ 4 ohms as opposed to 50 watts x 1 amplifier @ 8 ohms. I forgot exactly what the question was already but I know I explained it. In an HT receiver, the more speakers you use the less power per channel you get. For example, running them in stereo might allow the amp to produce 100 watt peaks without clipping, but with all the surround speakers going that will drop considerably, depending on the amp. Oh, that's right. Wattage per dB? That doesn't make any sense. Given a speaker under certain conditions you're going to get the same output for the same input no matter how it's connected. There's good information in stickies posted at these forums. Read them!
 
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avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
A1. Human ears begin to really hear distortion at about 10% THD. Most of the time speakers will always produce much higher levels of distortion than any amplifier, even tube amps. Unless you see the THD values go into the few percent range, I wouldn't worry.
There should be some qualification with this statement. Human's hear total harmonic distortion differently depending on the frequency. The higher the frequency the more susceptible one is to hearing distortion as our ears are more sensitive at higher frequencies than lower.

Apologies for not being able to cite my source as I can't remember where I read this :eek:, but it was done in a double blinded study that seemed fairly well designed.

B2. They will likely be different, but using an SPL meter you could fix this very easily.
 
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F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
A1. Given that the THD at 1kHz is 0.7% at 6 ohm, how high would it be at 20Khz? It almost appears as if the amp is unable to drive even 6 ohm speakers with good quality. By comparison, the Outlaw is able to drive the whole 8-4ohm range with 0.05% for all audible frequencies.
It would be inaudible. Anything under 1% is inaudible. Worrying about hundredths of a percent is like counting angels on the head of a pin.

A2. Though it is not designed for it, what kind of THD could I expect when driving 4 ohm speakers from the reciever?
Inaudible.


A3. Would this reciever (designed for 8 ohm) be able to sustain 4 ohm speakers _stabley_ (as 4 ohm speakers are likely to drop to 2ohmish)?
I don't see a problem at all.

A4. With the 8.1A PS, what dB range would I be able to run the system at given the stated 5.1ch speaker set (and not including the amplifier)?
Most likely loud enough to break the speakers.

A5. Are the pre-amp outputs of the reciever also suceptible to the frequency response of the reciever (Due, i suspect to the signal processing)?
Most likely the preamp section has a flatter frequency response curve than the the amplifier stage simply because it amplifies less.

[ Amplifier ]
B1. If an amplifier is used for each of the main outputs, how do they know what gain to use in order to match the dB of the other speakers (center, surrounds, sub)?
Either you or the automated equalization program tells the preamp. The amps just amplify what the preamp feeds. The preamp controls levels.

B2. If separate amplifiers are used to drive left and right channels (instead of using a stereo amplifier) what is the possibility of and extent that the dB will vary between the left and right?
It is all adjustable.

B3. Is there any audible sound quality benefit to separating the main channel into HF/LF and using a bi-amp connection to the main speakers if the original source is a combined pre-amp out?
None whatsoever in a typical home based home theater.

B4. Are there any mono amplifiers available (<$400 @ 150W-200W) with a built-in crossover?
Not to my knowledge. I assume you know the speakers have crossover networks built in?

B5. Given that the reciever has increasingly disruptive THD when driving 6 ohms, would using a 7 channel amplifier with a stated 20Hz-20kHz 0.05% THD yield an audible sound quality increase?
You say disruptive THD. I assume you mean the inaudible THD? I'm not aware of any high quality amplifier made anywhere in the world today that delivers audible distortion unless it is clipping. So, no audible sound quality increase.

[ Speakers ]
C1. If you separate the HF/LF of the main speakers, would driving each half be less of a load on the amplifier with regard to wattage per dB? It seems odd that driving 6 speakers would use the same amount of energy as driving 3. In the case of the stated M80's, both HF and LF would still be 4ohmish.
Yes it would. You didn't ask if it would make enough difference to be audible so I'll answer that any way. No it wouldn't.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
There should be some qualification with this statement. Human's hear total harmonic distortion differently depending on the frequency. The higher the frequency the more susceptible one is to hearing distortion as our ears are more sensitive at higher frequencies than lower.

Apologies for not being able to cite my source as I can't remember where I read this :eek:, but it was done in a double blinded study that seemed fairly well designed.

B2. They will likely be different, but using an SPL meter you could fix this very easily.
Don't say I didn't cover your back:D

http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion.html#

http://www.mastersonaudio.com/features/20040401.htm

book mark these for the next post that is sure to come up:D
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
The power handling on the M80s is quite high. The speakers would sooner be destroyed by clipping than over powering from the receiver and possibly even the amplifier. Not to worry however, as I am quite certain the Outlaw could drive the M80s past the human hearing threshold for pain before the speakers would come close to being damaged.

Emotiva offers an amplifier that has the ability to be bridged into mono 150 watts @ 8 ohms with a x-over option.

http://www.emotiva.com/bpa1.html

$159 plus shipping.:D
 
E

Electrocutor

Audiophyte
It would be inaudible. Anything under 1% is inaudible. Worrying about hundredths of a percent is like counting angels on the head of a pin.
Given that at 8ohm they specify the THD (0.05%) range as 20Hz-20kHz and at 6ohm they specify the THD (0.7%) as only at 1kHz, can you not assume that at 20kHz, the THD will be higher than 0.7%?

With this same line of thinking, since the THD is 0.05% at 8ohm at 1kHz and 0.7% at 6ohm at 1kHz (an increase of 14x), can we not assume that the move from 6ohm to 4ohm would increase another x14, leaving the THD at almost 10% at 1kHz? If so, then at 20kHz at 4ohm would the THD not be very, VERY audible since the human ear can discern THD much better at higher frequencies?
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
Given that at 8ohm they specify the THD (0.05%) range as 20Hz-20kHz and at 6ohm they specify the THD (0.7%) as only at 1kHz, can you not assume that at 20kHz, the THD will be higher than 0.7%?
Perhaps, but you aren't really using evidence for this assumption, it is more of a guess. It is likely that the THD would be higher, but not high enough for you to hear.

With this same line of thinking, since the THD is 0.05% at 8ohm at 1kHz and 0.7% at 6ohm at 1kHz (an increase of 14x), can we not assume that the move from 6ohm to 4ohm would increase another x14, leaving the THD at almost 10% at 1kHz?
You are assuming that THD is linear in its increase based on two points without enough evidence to be sure.
If so, then at 20kHz at 4ohm would the THD not be very, VERY audible since the human ear can discern THD much better at higher frequencies?
The THD would likely be higher, but still out of the audible range at all frequencies.

Read these to understand what is audible at what frequencies:


http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion.html#

http://www.mastersonaudio.com/features/20040401.htm

edit: It seems you are getting very caught up in specs. With current technology there is no reason amps cannot be made to be completely transparent and inaudible. So don't worry too much.
 
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M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Denon AVR-4308CI
- URL - usa.denon.com/AVR-4308CI-OM-E_004.pdf
- 140W x 7 @ 8 ohm - 0.05% THD (20Hz - 20kHz)
- 170W x 7 @ 6 ohm - 0.7% THD (1kHz)
- Power Supply = 8.1A
Given that at 8ohm they specify the THD (0.05%) range as 20Hz-20kHz and at 6ohm they specify the THD (0.7%) as only at 1kHz, can you not assume that at 20kHz, the THD will be higher than 0.7%?
No, you can't assume anything. The key to the power vs THD ratings is to recognize that distortion increases as you get near the limits of the amplifier. The THD rating for an 8 Ohm load is an average measured across the entire frequency range whereas the rating for the 6 Ohm load was measured at one single frequency. The 6 Ohm power rating is higher so naturally the THD will be higher as well.

The power vs distortion can be plotted and there is some leeway for choosing how to specify both the power and distortion numbers. They chose to use 140W/.05% THD but it could very well have been specified as 150W/.08% THD.

Don't get hung up on THD. As stated above, anything under 1% is inaudible. Manufacturers like to look good compared to each other and usually shoot for a rating of .08%.
 
T

tubesaregood

Audioholic
Word to the wise - do not ever worry about an amplifier's THD unless you plan to open the throttle all the way on a tube amp. Like I said, the numbers given by most manufacturers these days mean diddley sh*t in the grand scheme of things. You can very well bet that with the system you've described, any distortion you actually hear will be the speakers, and most people will turn the volume down well before the amplifier actually starts clipping because the speakers sound so terrible by that point.

It's really quite amazing the things you discover when you've been around a lot of audio gear. For example, you discover that 1 watt is a pretty good deal of audio power. Music playing with peaks at 1 watt is loud background music that's difficult to talk over. You also learn that RMS ratings are only good for predicting an amplifier's headroom, RMS ratings for speakers are nearly pointless because it's unlikely a 50 watt RMS speaker will ever, ever receive 50 watts on average (because amps rated for 50 watts RMS will rarely produce 50 watts on average), which will probably destroy the speaker mechanically anyway... the list goes on. I and everyone else here could talk for hours.
 
A

AbyssalLoris

Audioholic
If you're trying to predict what THD will be at 20kHz, forget about it. It is impossible to tell. There is no simple law. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to assume it is linear. I doubt very much that it would be 10% at 20kHz. It is obviously going to be worse than the 8-ohm case for reasons stated by the previous posters. But that is about all you can determine.
 
A

AbyssalLoris

Audioholic
I don't see a problem at all.
I'm not sure how one can say if it will drive 4-ohm stably or not. Maybe you know this particular AVR to do so, but otherwise, I'm not sure we can generalize and say that it will drive 4-ohm well. Now this is a little ambiguous as I'm not sure what the parameter that decides 'well' is. If it drives 4-ohm it is likely to do so at a lower power level than would be expected (far less than a 'double-down'). I don't think there is going to be any 'instability' (oscillation) issues in the traditional sense.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
[ Reciever ]
A1. Given that the THD at 1kHz is 0.7% at 6 ohm, how high would it be at 20Khz? It almost appears as if the amp is unable to drive even 6 ohm speakers with good quality. By comparison, the Outlaw is able to drive the whole 8-4ohm range with 0.05% for all audible frequencies.
It is unable to drive 4-6ohm load to high levels as good as a seperate amp.

A2. Though it is not designed for it, what kind of THD could I expect when driving 4 ohm speakers from the reciever?
I wouldn't recommend it.

A3. Would this reciever (designed for 8 ohm) be able to sustain 4 ohm speakers _stabley_ (as 4 ohm speakers are likely to drop to 2ohmish)?
I wouldn't recommend it.

A4. With the 8.1A PS, what dB range would I be able to run the system at given the stated 5.1ch speaker set (and not including the amplifier)?
Depends on your room.

A5. Are the pre-amp outputs of the reciever also suceptible to the frequency response of the reciever (Due, i suspect to the signal processing)?
All receiver specs apply eccept for power.

[ Amplifier ]
B1. If an amplifier is used for each of the main outputs, how do they know what gain to use in order to match the dB of the other speakers (center, surrounds, sub)?
You have to calibrate your receiver with a set-up disc, and an SPL meter.

B2. If separate amplifiers are used to drive left and right channels (instead of using a stereo amplifier) what is the possibility of and extent that the dB will vary between the left and right?
Previous answer.

B3. Is there any audible sound quality benefit to separating the main channel into HF/LF and using a bi-amp connection to the main speakers if the original source is a combined pre-amp out?
No.

B4. Are there any mono amplifiers available (<$400 @ 150W-200W) with a built-in crossover?
I wouldn't consider it if there were. The crossover has to be designed to match the drivers.

B5. Given that the reciever has increasingly disruptive THD when driving 6 ohms, would using a 7 channel amplifier with a stated 20Hz-20kHz 0.05% THD yield an audible sound quality increase?
At high levels.


[ Speakers ]
C1. If you separate the HF/LF of the main speakers, would driving each half be less of a load on the amplifier with regard to wattage per dB? It seems odd that driving 6 speakers would use the same amount of energy as driving 3. In the case of the stated M80's, both HF and LF would still be 4ohmish.
I do believe it reduces the ohm load. I am not certain. By reduces, I mean a 6ohm connection becomes two 12ohm. One 4ohm becomes two 8. But, I doubt it reduces it that much. Like I said, I am not certain on the exact specs, and I would imagine it would be different for every speaker.

But, it certainly makes the speaker easier to drive because you would be using seperate channels of the amp.
 
A

AbyssalLoris

Audioholic
All receiver specs apply eccept for power.
Again, I doubt this. As previously stated, the pre-outs should have lower THD than the amplified receiver outs. It is usually a high level of amplification and high output signal level that is accompanied by high distortion. At low signal levels and low amplification (pre-out) distortion should be extremely low.

However, this is a generalization. I don't know what the THD on the pre-outs of that particular AVR would be.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
Again, I doubt this. As previously stated, the pre-outs should have lower THD than the amplified receiver outs. It is usually a high level of amplification and high output signal level that is accompanied by high distortion. At low signal levels and low amplification (pre-out) distortion should be extremely low.

However, this is a generalization. I don't know what the THD on the pre-outs of that particular AVR would be.
The question I answered asked about FR, not THD.

I would think that the THD spec would come from the amp, and agree with you that this receiver used as a pre-pro would not add much to this spec.

A5. Are the pre-amp outputs of the reciever also suceptible to the frequency response of the reciever (Due, i suspect to the signal processing)?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
A1. It is only 0.7% THD at 1 KHz if you actually need, and pour 170W into your 6 ohm speakers. Let's assume the speaker's impedance is purely resistive (it is most certainly not but impedances of speakers are frequency dependent so we have to make an assumption for comparison/illustration purposes), then 140W into 8 ohms means current = square root of 140/8=4.1833A. If you keep the current at this level, the distortion should not increase above the 0.05% specified for the 8 ohm load.

At 4.1833A, the receiver should be able to output 4.1833X4.1833X6=105W into 6 ohms, or 4.1833X4.1833X4=70W into 4 ohms. I would think that the 4308 could maintain the same freq response (20 to 20,000) and THD level (0.05%) for 8 ohm load if you limit its output at or below 70W for 4 ohms or 105W for 6 ohms. This is not for sure but I would say theorectically very likely. In fact, I would bet that the numbers (70W/105W) I used are conservative. The real world numbers are more than likely higher.

A2. See the last paragraph of my response to A1. There is no way of knowing it for sure without any lab measurements. I was just trying to do some prediction based on math and basic electrical theory.

A3. I would say yes, as long as you limit its output to 70W or less, it will be stable. Your Axiom speakers may dip down to 2 ohms but most speaker's impedance don't dip that low at the lower bass frequencies. At higher frequencies, e.g. >150 Hz, current demand is not likely going to be too high.

A4. It depends a lot on your room size and acoustics. That 8.1A Denon specify is not necessarily the maximum limit. Unlike HK, Denon typically do not provide maximum power consumption or current figures. Regardless, even at 8.1A on the 120V side would get you 24.3A at 40V on the secondary side of the transformer where the current get rectified to d.c. for the amplifiers. We are talking about continuous rating here, the transient capability will be much higher (hence the HK type of high INSTANTANEOUS current specs of up to +-70A!!). Again, please realize that Denon did not say that the 8.1A specified is "maximum".

A5. Why would you worry about freq response if you are talking about the preouts? May be I misunderstood your question.

B5. Again, the receiver's THD only increases to 0.7% or higher levels at higher output. At lower output level, e.g. 70W or below, even with 4 ohm loads, you may not hear any difference in SQ, with or without the external multichannel amp.
 
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F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Given that at 8ohm they specify the THD (0.05%) range as 20Hz-20kHz and at 6ohm they specify the THD (0.7%) as only at 1kHz, can you not assume that at 20kHz, the THD will be higher than 0.7%?

With this same line of thinking, since the THD is 0.05% at 8ohm at 1kHz and 0.7% at 6ohm at 1kHz (an increase of 14x), can we not assume that the move from 6ohm to 4ohm would increase another x14, leaving the THD at almost 10% at 1kHz? If so, then at 20kHz at 4ohm would the THD not be very, VERY audible since the human ear can discern THD much better at higher frequencies?
No, there would be no basis to make either assumption. I should mention that the speaker impedance itself has no relation to distortion. It merely represents the "AC resistance" to the current from the amplifier. It determines how much power the speaker system will draw from the amplifier. I don't know why you want to relate it to distortion. Lower impedances draw more curent. Simple as that.

When amplifiers are overdriven, they will clip the waveforms and distort. That is an extremely severe situation you won't encounter in any kind of normal use in a normal home. Amplifier distortion is not something to be concerned about with modern equipment. Not even a little. Let it go. Modern amplifiers of good quality with flat frequency response curves and inaudible distortion will perform the same within their design parameters. They will not add any coloration or "sound" to the signal being amplified. They all work pretty much the same. Designing and manufacturing "transparent" amplifiers is trivial in this day and age and has been for the past 40 years.
 
no. 5

no. 5

Audioholic Field Marshall
A1. Given that the THD at 1kHz is 0.7% at 6 ohm, how high would it be at 20Khz?
can you even hear 20kHz?

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but if it's inaudible anyways, it's not really worth being concerned about, and since the second harmonic of 20kHz is 40kHz, I would think (assuming I understand THD correctly) that the level of THD at 20kHz would be nothing to lose sleep over (not that a low number would not be desirable).
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
A1. It is only 0.7% THD at 1 KHz if you actually need, and pour 170W into your 6 ohm speakers. Let's assume the speaker's impedance is purely resistive (it is most certainly not but impedances of speakers are frequency dependent so we have to make an assumption for comparison/illustration purposes), then 140W into 8 ohms means current = square root of 140/8=4.1833A. If you keep the current at this level, the distortion should not increase above the 0.05% specified for the 8 ohm load.

At 4.1833A, the receiver should be able to output 4.1833X4.1833X6=105W into 6 ohms, or 4.1833X4.1833X4=70W into 4 ohms. I would think that the 4308 could maintain the same freq response (20 to 20,000) and THD level (0.05%) for 8 ohm load if you limit its output at or below 70W for 4 ohms or 105W for 6 ohms. This is not for sure but I would say theorectically very likely. In fact, I would bet that the numbers (70W/105W) I used are conservative. The real world numbers are more than likely higher.

.

My thoughts on the 6 ohm rating are that it may be a misprint? I tried to find it on the web site but didn't list it. Such a drastic difference between 8 Ohms, full spectrum FR listing and so low, and 6 Ohms, one frequency listing and sky high compared to the other, from a top tier receiver is unusual. I'd like to see a real bench test report on it.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
I'm not sure how one can say if it will drive 4-ohm stably or not. Maybe you know this particular AVR to do so, but otherwise, I'm not sure we can generalize and say that it will drive 4-ohm well. Now this is a little ambiguous as I'm not sure what the parameter that decides 'well' is. If it drives 4-ohm it is likely to do so at a lower power level than would be expected (far less than a 'double-down'). I don't think there is going to be any 'instability' (oscillation) issues in the traditional sense.
All name brand quality receivers have enough power supply to drive 4 ohm loads. That's why I didn't see a problem. I'm not aware of any amp made today that buckles against a 4 ohm load.

It is true that an amp will meet its maximum capacity to deliver current at higher power levels before lower ones but what you are worried about isn't likely to happen in a home system under normal use. I suppose you could set up a test situation that would cause a 4 ohm load to cause an amp to reach its maximum current delivery but you wouldn't likely encounter it in actual use.

I read a lot theory on this forum that doesn't relate to actual practice in a real environment for home entertainment. I think it is because the magazine writers like to expound on theory without ever putting it into context.

I have no idea what you mean by oscillation.
 
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