Receiver upgrade = confusion

A

air-assault1

Audiophyte
Hello all,
I am almost done with my home theater upgrade with the receiver being the last piece to fill. I'm working with a budget up to $800 and will be using it mostly for movies with occasional music/radio (75/25 mix). Setup will be 7.1 with no second zone in the house. I've been scouring numerous websites trying to become educated and have learned quite a lot but am still undecided.

I have been looking at the following:
Onkyo TX-NR626 or 727
Denon AVR-X 1000, 2000, or 3000
Yamaha RX-A730 or 830
Sony STR-DN1040

Obvious I'm looking for the best bang for my buck but cannot see many differences between them besides various options. Can anyone shed some light and insight to help me finally make a choice?

Also, what is the benefit you get with more watts?

Thanks all!
 
Hookedonc4

Hookedonc4

Audioholic
I don't think you could go wrong with the Denon X3000. If you can get the X4000...

My neighbor has the X4000 and it's very nice.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
IMO, you want Audyssey XT32 to get the best sound with minimal setup effort. Based on this it comes down to the Onkyo NR818 or Denon X4000.

If you don't foresee getting a second sub, go with the 818. If you're getting a second sub, you also want Audyssey SubEq HT. In the latter case, get the X4000.

I have a writeup on the two, http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/write-your-own-review/87483-tale-two-receivers-onkyo-nr818-denon-x4000.html

The forum reader reviews section has writeups on other AVRs on your list.


This thread compares the Denon line, http://www.avsforum.com/t/1465528/the-official-2013-denon-e-series-x-series-avr-model-owners-thread-faq

For good prices on new receives, contact AVS Store and Electronics Expo. For good prices on refurb units, look at Accessories4Less.com
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
+1 to what agarwalro said above.
I'd like to add if you can't afford avr with Audyssey XT32 - at least get one with Audyssey XT
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Hello all,
I am almost done with my home theater upgrade with the receiver being the last piece to fill. I'm working with a budget up to $800 and will be using it mostly for movies with occasional music/radio (75/25 mix). Setup will be 7.1 with no second zone in the house. I've been scouring numerous websites trying to become educated and have learned quite a lot but am still undecided.

I have been looking at the following:
Onkyo TX-NR626 or 727
Denon AVR-X 1000, 2000, or 3000
Yamaha RX-A730 or 830
Sony STR-DN1040

Obvious I'm looking for the best bang for my buck but cannot see many differences between them besides various options. Can anyone shed some light and insight to help me finally make a choice?

Also, what is the benefit you get with more watts?

Thanks all!
For $800, you can get a higher level Yamaha than the ones you mention:

Yamaha RX-A1020 7.2-channel home theater receiver with Apple AirPlay® at Crutchfield.com

Amazon.com: Yamaha RX-A1020 7.2-Channel Network AVENTAGE AV Receiver: Electronics

It is a recently discontinued model, but it is what I would get for $800.

Here are a couple of reviews of it:

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-rx-a2020-aventage

Yamaha RX-A1020 A/V Receiver | Sound & Vision


I like Yamaha because they have a good feature set, are reasonably priced, and, judging from online complaints about various brands, they seem as reliable as any brand you can buy. If a thing does not work, it does not matter what features and gewgaws it has.


As for your question of more power, what that gets you is the ability to play louder. This can matter for dynamic peaks in music, even if the average volume is not terribly high.

However, it takes a doubling of power to get only a 3dB difference, which, though easily noticeable, is not dramatic. I would not concern myself with any less difference.

But as you might guess, the subject of power gets far more complicated than that, as the power output at one impedance does not tell you what the amplifier can put out at other impedances, and speakers vary in impedance at different frequencies. If rated honestly, the "nominal" impedance of a speaker is what you can pretend it is overall. But many speakers are not rated honestly (because many speaker companies are run by liars), and so you should judge what is needed to drive them by their minimum impedance.

In general, most receivers from reputable brands that are similarly priced tend to have comparable power output for practical real world situations. If one needs substantially more power, then it is usually best to buy a separate power amplifier or amplifiers instead of trying to buy a more expensive receiver. But to do this, one must have preamp outputs for all channels with which one wishes to use a power amp.
 
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A

air-assault1

Audiophyte
Thanks everyone for your input.

Obvious the Audyssey EQ XT32 is the top of their line but how does Yamaha's compare since they do their own? It's also my understanding that using these speaker placement programs will only benefit a person if they are sitting in the location where the microphone was placed at. So if I'm sitting in this spot it will sound correct but if I end up sitting in a different location then it will not sound like it should. Is this logic correct?

As for my room specs it's 15'W x 32'L by 8 1/2' H. All speakers are going to be DefTechs, the L,C,R will be stand alones and for the surround there will be 4 ceiling speakers at around the 10' and 20' mark from the front. As of this moment there will just be one 10" sub, not sure if a room this size would benefit from a second sub.

I'm not that concerned with blowing the windows and doors off of my house by playing things loud, especially if it sounds terrible (distored and not clear).

What is the recommended budget ratio between speakers and receivers, i.e. 50% speakers and 50% receiver, 70?

I imagine that everyone has their own personal preferance but is there any comparision chart that shows how receivers sound? My guess is not due to too many variables.

The 818 by Onkyo was on my radat but after seeing the issues with the HDMI board failures I'm not willing to risk it with that specific model.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks everyone for your input.

Obvious the Audyssey EQ XT32 is the top of their line but how does Yamaha's compare since they do their own?
As far as I know, no one has ever done a proper, measured comparison of such things. But a lack of facts does not stop many people from having opinions about what is better.

Levels and delays (aka distances) are easy for any company to do reasonably well.


It's also my understanding that using these speaker placement programs will only benefit a person if they are sitting in the location where the microphone was placed at. So if I'm sitting in this spot it will sound correct but if I end up sitting in a different location then it will not sound like it should. Is this logic correct?

Your reasoning is basically correct, though many of the higher models allow for one to measure in several locations, and then a compromise is selected by the receiver to make sure that none of the places will be too bad.

But for optimum sound, you need to sit in the optimum location. No system can change that fact.


As for my room specs it's 15'W x 32'L by 8 1/2' H. All speakers are going to be DefTechs, the L,C,R will be stand alones and for the surround there will be 4 ceiling speakers at around the 10' and 20' mark from the front. As of this moment there will just be one 10" sub, not sure if a room this size would benefit from a second sub.

I'm not that concerned with blowing the windows and doors off of my house by playing things loud, especially if it sounds terrible (distored and not clear).

What is the recommended budget ratio between speakers and receivers, i.e. 50% speakers and 50% receiver, 70?

There is no set ratio, and different people disagree on this. In my opinion, you should spend the minimum you can on the receiver, and as much as possible on speakers, because speakers matter far more for the sound.

I was running a receiver that retailed for about $600 with speakers that retailed for over $6000, and it sounded great. I wanted more (and newer) features, so I upgraded to a receiver that retails for about $1700. Unless I engage a feature that affects the sound, it sounds the same as before. Now, the new receiver will put out about twice as much power as the old one, but with my speakers, I was able to achieve volumes that I found painful with crystal clarity with the old model, so the extra power is useless to me. But with other speakers, it could have made a difference.


I imagine that everyone has their own personal preferance but is there any comparision chart that shows how receivers sound? My guess is not due to too many variables.

If you bypass the internal equalization and DSP soundfields, they will pretty much all sound the same when operating within their limits (e.g., you are not overdriving one of them, etc.)

Obviously, though, different DSP settings will make things sound different, and which of those is "best" is pure personal preference, not anything that is going to be objective.


The 818 by Onkyo was on my radat but after seeing the issues with the HDMI board failures I'm not willing to risk it with that specific model.
Yamaha is the way to go if reliability is paramount. One very rarely hears about systemic problems with them, though any company will occasionally make a lemon.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Can't add anything to Pyrrho's thorough response.
The 818 by Onkyo was on my radat but after seeing the issues with the HDMI board failures I'm not willing to risk it with that specific model.
I believe the 80x series receivers were very susceptible to HDMI board failures due to the receivers getting extremely hot with poor heat management. This was exacerbated by folks not being good about proper ventilation needs. The 81x series get less hot and have a fan in the chassis. The 82x series plays cooler still. I understand from the 818 owners thread on AVS Forum that the HDMI board failure issue has not cropped up, but the stigma persists.

That said, even when using my 818 as a pre-pro, it got fairly warm to the touch. The fan would kick in regularly. By contrast, my X4000 feels barely warmer than ambient temp.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
I just thought of something to add to my post above; another reason to put as much money as possible into speakers (aside from the fact that they matter far more for the sound), and as little as possible into a receiver, is the fact that when you need or want new features, you can keep the speakers but you need to replace the receiver (because that is the part that lacks the features). Whenever you replace something, you tend to lose money on that thing. This is bad if you spent a lot of money on the thing that you are replacing, unless you are rich and won't miss the money.

In my case, my speakers are good enough that I do not plan on ever upgrading them. They are not the best that money can buy, but they are very, very good (which they should be at their price point), and it would be extremely expensive to replace them with something better. But I am far less sure that I will be keeping my current receiver forever, as they are always coming out with new features, and they might even come out with something that I really want.

Also, although receivers from a reliable brand (like Yamaha) tend to last a long time if not abused, their longevity is not likely to be as good as many speakers. (This is reflected in the warranties on many powered subwoofers, where the woofer is guaranteed longer than the electronics. Electronics are less reliable than speakers, generally speaking.) Speakers tend to be very reliable; if they are not abused, they might last a lifetime. There are, of course, exceptions, and anything may be destroyed prematurely if one puts one's mind to it.

To sum up: Great speakers are a good long-term investment, but a great receiver isn't a good long-term investment. Put your money in your speakers.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
To sum up: Great speakers are a good long-term investment, but a great receiver isn't a good long-term investment. Put your money in your speakers.
Very well said. Post of the day!
 
R

rexracer

Junior Audioholic
Like Pyrrho (it seems), I'm a fan of Yamaha receivers, but I also agree with what he said about speakers. I love my Yamaha receiver and will own it for years to come, but will get another at some point, because mine doesn't have HDMI. A couple of of reasons I like Yamaha, besides reliability, are a very low noise floor, and that they seem to be "overbuilt" compared to some. I know my RX-V659 is under rated at 100 watts per chanel. I've run it full volume for 1/2 hour and it barely feels warm, and that was in summer. My brother-in-law has an Onkyo and after running at 70% for a half hour it's HOT! Yamaha's seem to never strain no matter how hard you push them, and though my current speakers don't strain the receiver at 8 ohms, I wouldn't hesitate to run 4 ohm speakers, and I'm sure this thing would drive them well. BTW, Amazon has the RX-A 2020 for $999 if you can swing it. I think it's the best bang for the buck I've seen.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Like Pyrrho (it seems), I'm a fan of Yamaha receivers, but I also agree with what he said about speakers. I love my Yamaha receiver and will own it for years to come, but will get another at some point, because mine doesn't have HDMI. A couple of of reasons I like Yamaha, besides reliability, are a very low noise floor, and that they seem to be "overbuilt" compared to some. I know my RX-V659 is under rated at 100 watts per chanel. I've run it full volume for 1/2 hour and it barely feels warm, and that was in summer. My brother-in-law has an Onkyo and after running at 70% for a half hour it's HOT! Yamaha's seem to never strain no matter how hard you push them, and though my current speakers don't strain the receiver at 8 ohms, I wouldn't hesitate to run 4 ohm speakers, and I'm sure this thing would drive them well. BTW, Amazon has the RX-A 2020 for $999 if you can swing it. I think it's the best bang for the buck I've seen.
I like Yamaha receivers, but I would be careful about low impedance speakers with them. Very few surround receivers are really well-suited for such use, and so I would advise anyone with difficult to drive speakers to buy a separate amplifier (or amplifiers) that are designed for such use (making sure one gets a receiver with preamp outputs to be able to use external amplification), particularly if the person likes to listen to them at high volumes and if they are inefficient.

The RX-A2020 for $1000 seems like a good deal, and it can be had from Amazon, as you say, or from Crutchfield or from Yamaha directly. But $1000 is over budget for the opening post, which is why I suggested the RX-A1020, one step down, for $800.
 
A

air-assault1

Audiophyte
Thanks all for you info, had to make it through the holidays before I could get back up and running.

I ended up purchasing the Denon x4000 from accessories4less today as they had a deal on it for $800. So it met my budget limit, has the Audyssey 32 that was recommended, and other bells and whistles that I may or may not end up using.

Thanks again for your time and input and I'll report back after I get to play with it, can provide a review from an "average Joe" consumer.
 
tmurnin

tmurnin

Full Audioholic
Just one other comment, that is a huge room for a 10" sub. If you get some additional budget, you would be well served by upgrading the sub. Personally, I wouldn't get a second 10" sub, as I think the room is still too large. I'd get something like a HSU VTF-15 or something from SVS. Start with one and then add a second later once the funds become available.
 

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