Rear surrounds placement with wall right behind seating position

[kay]

Hi Audioholics!

It's been a while and I come back with a question. I have a pair of surrounds which are to the left/right of my couch. Now the problem is that they are easily located so I've turned them down quite a lot. This would be easily solved by moving them further back behind the listening position, but that's impossible. Is there a way to utilize the rear centre channel(s) (i.e. 6.1 or 7.1 configuration) somehow by placing 1/2 speaker(s) on the wall behind the listener, perhaps above the couch pointing down?

Regards,
kay

 

[The Chukker]

Will you be using said speakers as side surrounds or surround backs? Your post is not clear regarding how you intend on using them. If you are using them as side surrounds they should be roughly parallel with or slightly behind the seating position and angled towards the listener. If this is still too "locateable", toe them in or out to taste, or even better use bipolar or dipolar speakers. It is also beneficial to have surrounds mounted above the listener and angled down (but not required) -- this also will help achieve non-directionality. As for surround backs, try to at the very least put them on stands that are above the listener, experiment by decreasing/increasing the distance between them (that is if you are attempting 7.1) Lastly, if you are going to go with 6.1 keep in mind the "sweet spot" is considerably smaller and more difficult to integrate than a 7.1 set up. If you would like to see how I tackled this very issue with an extremely small room with a wall right behind the seating position, head over to:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18987

Yes, I am guilty of shameless self-promotion

 

[kay]

That looks like an awesome setup! I bet it sounds excellent looking at the pics & equipment list Did the Emotiva make a big difference for you? (assuming you were using the Denon for power previously) I'm trying to decide what to buy next, and power amp is one of the options.

My situation is almost identical to yours! I currently have a 4.0 setup with the side surrounds on stands, pretty much just like yours are. I'd rather add rear surrounds sooner than a front centre speaker because my TV is exactly centered between the fronts and imaging is great as it is. The lack of a uniform surround field behind you bugs me though, hence this thread

I've never seen anyone add the rear surrounds on stands like that, it's an interesting idea. I was thinking of placing them higher up on the wall but I read in many places (including Audioholics) that bipoles on a rear wall don't do much - apparently they need to be on side walls?

I'll experiment with toeing the side surrounds out, they're currently pointing straight at the listener. Playing with toe did wonders for the fronts so I might just surprise myself...

 

[The Chukker]

Believe it or not, and I am not saying this because it's about "my" system, but the surround backs in their current configuration not only sound great, but with the right content absolutely fool me into thinking I have more space back there. It was not like that out of the box though, I had to tinker with the channel levels quite a bit (SR -3.0 db, SBR -2.5 db, SBL -1.5 db, SL -1.0 db) to get them to blend evenly in my space. It really helps that they are above the seating position. In addition, the 3805 can be programmed to the tenth of a foot for distance from speaker to listener. Also, because they are bi-polar as well as being run full range, they are a LOT less directional than the smaller monitors I used to have. These all contribute to a more natural sounding surround image.

Some material that may help you in getting "balance" in your rear channels:
The Bourne Identity -- lots of thunder and lightning from the surround channels at the beginning of the movie. If your reciever allows it, great matrixing of the SB channel(s) too.
Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence -- this is my reference DVD for surround back information. This movie, in literally every scene, has something going on in the SB channels. The gunshots from directly behind you in the shootout scene are EXTREMELY impressive. Lots of "soft" stuff happening in the surround channels as well (footsteps, someone cocking the hammer on a gun directly behind you, too many examples to list). Get this DVD, you will thank me.
Mr. and Mrs. Smith -- this movie absolutely rocks, even if you don't like bradjolina; great mix with lots of stuff in the rear channels.
Casablanca -- just kidding, but get it anyway best movie of all time
Best of luck in your setup, post or pm me any time if you'd like to talk more specifics about your room/equipment.
Regards,
chux

 

[bbob]

corner-located rear speaker layout-please help

Hi all,

(this is my first forum post...ever...so I hope I'm doing this right). I am setting up a surround sound system in a small room, with a diagonal/corner viewing layout (I can email anyone a visual diagram if interested). I think I have it mostly figured out, except for the "rear" speakers. The viewer/listeners will be in the opposite corner as the TV, in a corner-located couch, so I'm wondering what's the best way to get the widest rear acoustics, even though the speakers can't be physically behind the listener. I've thought of banking them off the side walls, either placed in the side corners and facing toward the listener corner, or locating them together in the back corner, facing out to the left and right, respectively. Any thoughts?

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[ScottMayo]

I am setting up a surround sound system in a small room, with a diagonal/corner viewing layout (I can email anyone a visual diagram if interested). I think I have it mostly figured out, except for the "rear" speakers. The viewer/listeners will be in the opposite corner as the TV, in a corner-located couch, so I'm wondering what's the best way to get the widest rear acoustics, even though the speakers can't be physically behind the listener. I've thought of banking them off the side walls, either placed in the side corners and facing toward the listener corner, or locating them together in the back corner, facing out to the left and right, respectively. Any thoughts?

What you're trying to do is tough -make a small corner seating arrangement work.

The back corner, facing out, is probably the best bet. As an experiment, try wiring one backwards ("out of phase"). This sort of improvises a "dipole" speaker, which *might* work in your arrangement. It makes it hard to tell exactly where the sound is coming from, which might be an advantage in your situation.

A different trick is to mount them in the corner, on the ceiling, firing straight down.

One thing to note: sitting in a corner puts you at the mercy of your room's acoustics. You'll get a big bass boost that way, if your room is like most rooms. This won't be as wonderful as you might think; in fact it can get very annoying. Don't make any permament mountings until you've placed all the speakers, and decided you like the way it sounds.

 

[louhamilton]

In a small room with a seating position against back wall, there is next to no benefit with a 7.1 system. Very difficult to hear a difference.

I have the same issue with my seating position. I just ordered a pair of Polk FXi3's to finish my 5.1 system upgrade (all right, I just lied. Still need to upgrade the sub). They will be on the back wall. I will play around with them to find the "best" position for them. I have an idea as to where they will go, but we will see with testing them next weekend.

Currently I have direct firing surrounds facing right in front of the listening position from the back wall (pics are at http://louhamilton23.tripod.com).

Good luck!

-Lou

 

[The Chukker]

In a small room with a seating position against back wall, there is next to no benefit with a 7.1 system. Very difficult to hear a difference.

I disagree with you on this point Lou. An example is cited above from Ghost in the Shell 2, when the hammer is cocked on the gun directly behind the listener. When matrixed for the SB channel(s) it is directly behind the listener, without any bleeding in the SR and SL channels. In 5.1 it is fed to the SR and SL channels (and perhaps a subtle DSP) to sound as if it is coming from directly behind. The two sensations are completely different to me. Also, any panning effects that go from SL to SR (or vice versa) are more convincing with 7.1 than with 5.1 -- there is just a lot more overlap. An example would be in Mr. and Mrs. Smith when they are in the cellar after the tear gas has been thrown into the house and the sounds of the agents running around on the floorboards upstairs takes place entirely in the surround channels. It sounds a LOT more convincing on my 7.1 set up than it does on my 5.1 set up in my game room. I will concede that DVD Audio does not benefit from 7.1 in any way, that is until next gen content is authored in it.