• Thread starter TheloniousEllington
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T

TheloniousEllington

Junior Audioholic
I am planning on getting cables for a Yamaha 1060 aventage avr than has RCA outlets to go into a VRV purifi power amp with XLR inputs. I have found some from various companies such as Benchmark, Ghent audio, pro audio LA and March audio. They all have the correct soldering, but only one option I've seen has an unbalanced cable. Every other option is a quad cable for RFI/EMI protection. I've heard various mixed reviews about quad balances cables, whether mogami or canare, having a slight high end roll off.

My question is: Do these balanced quad cables need to be specifically used to solder/properly connect the RCA to XLR correctly, or does it not matter? Also, will these quad cables interfere with the original sonic spectrum during transmission?
 
G

Golfx

Senior Audioholic
XLR cables are really designed for long runs (25ft+) without fear of ground problems. So, you should be fine with the shorter ones from Benchmark or March. I used the ones from March. They were very well made. And no you do not have to worry about them changing the sonic quality of any sound you can hear.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I am planning on getting cables for a Yamaha 1060 aventage avr than has RCA outlets to go into a VRV purifi power amp with XLR inputs. I have found some from various companies such as Benchmark, Ghent audio, pro audio LA and March audio. They all have the correct soldering, but only one option I've seen has an unbalanced cable. Every other option is a quad cable for RFI/EMI protection. I've heard various mixed reviews about quad balances cables, whether mogami or canare, having a slight high end roll off.

My question is: Do these balanced quad cables need to be specifically used to solder/properly connect the RCA to XLR correctly, or does it not matter? Also, will these quad cables interfere with the original sonic spectrum during transmission?
I think your biggest problem is going to be driving that amp from the RCA preouts. Your VRV amp follows professional and not domestic practice. The input impedance is 2.2 Kohms and the minimum driving input voltage is 2.2 volts, with a max of 12 volts. I don't see any chance of receiver preouts driving that amp, without some sort of active interconnection. That amp is designed to be driven from an XLR output conforming to professional practice. A domestic power amp with RCA inputs would have an input impedance of 10K Ohms or higher, and an input sensitivity of 1.2 volts for full modulation.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I am planning on getting cables for a Yamaha 1060 aventage avr than has RCA outlets to go into a VRV purifi power amp with XLR inputs. I have found some from various companies such as Benchmark, Ghent audio, pro audio LA and March audio. They all have the correct soldering, but only one option I've seen has an unbalanced cable. Every other option is a quad cable for RFI/EMI protection. I've heard various mixed reviews about quad balances cables, whether mogami or canare, having a slight high end roll off.

My question is: Do these balanced quad cables need to be specifically used to solder/properly connect the RCA to XLR correctly, or does it not matter? Also, will these quad cables interfere with the original sonic spectrum during transmission?
This is the problem with people who spout BS on the internet and formerly, in magazines- they don't include all of the pertinent information for people to make informed decisions.

1) Consumer audio equipment IS NOT electrically compatible with pro audio if the audio outputs aren't matched WRT impedance and level.
2) It's NOT just a matter of 'They all have the correct soldering', it's about the two points in the first comment.
3) READ. It's easy to say "I don't know what to look for", but it's really easy to find info about this by using Google and entering whatever you want to know. Be as literal as possible. If you want to find out about "matching consumer audio equipment and pro audio equipment", type that in the search bar. Look for information on manufacturer websites, contact them through chat if they have it or send e-mails.

'Star grounding' is very misunderstood. It's not a physical topology, it's electrical- it means that all reference points are equi-potential, meaning that there's no resistance and no measurable voltage between them. For that matter, grounding and ground loops aren't well understood, either.

Bottom line- unless the differences in impedance and levels are corrected, mixing consumer and pro audio (or equipment that actually has circuitry that's the same as) shouldn't be done.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I am planning on getting cables for a Yamaha 1060 aventage avr than has RCA outlets to go into a VRV purifi power amp with XLR inputs. I have found some from various companies such as Benchmark, Ghent audio, pro audio LA and March audio. They all have the correct soldering, but only one option I've seen has an unbalanced cable. Every other option is a quad cable for RFI/EMI protection. I've heard various mixed reviews about quad balances cables, whether mogami or canare, having a slight high end roll off.

My question is: Do these balanced quad cables need to be specifically used to solder/properly connect the RCA to XLR correctly, or does it not matter? Also, will these quad cables interfere with the original sonic spectrum during transmission?
This is what you need to interface between your receiver and your power amp.
 
T

TheloniousEllington

Junior Audioholic
This is the problem with people who spout BS on the internet and formerly, in magazines- they don't include all of the pertinent information for people to make informed decisions.

1) Consumer audio equipment IS NOT electrically compatible with pro audio if the audio outputs aren't matched WRT impedance and level.
2) It's NOT just a matter of 'They all have the correct soldering', it's about the two points in the first comment.
3) READ. It's easy to say "I don't know what to look for", but it's really easy to find info about this by using Google and entering whatever you want to know. Be as literal as possible. If you want to find out about "matching consumer audio equipment and pro audio equipment", type that in the search bar. Look for information on manufacturer websites, contact them through chat if they have it or send e-mails.

'Star grounding' is very misunderstood. It's not a physical topology, it's electrical- it means that all reference points are equi-potential, meaning that there's no resistance and no measurable voltage between them. For that matter, grounding and ground loops aren't well understood, either.

Bottom line- unless the differences in impedance and levels are corrected, mixing consumer and pro audio (or equipment that actually has circuitry that's the same as) shouldn't be done.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
 
T

TheloniousEllington

Junior Audioholic
XLR cables are really designed for long runs (25ft+) without fear of ground problems. So, you should be fine with the shorter ones from Benchmark or March. I used the ones from March. They were very well made. And no you do not have to worry about them changing the sonic quality of any sound you can hear.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Thank you for the confirmation!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
i'd lose the sources that suggested it would be sonically related.
 
T

TheloniousEllington

Junior Audioholic
On the cable itself or the transmission?
 
T

TheloniousEllington

Junior Audioholic
I'm tired, yeah basically the same thing. So, the idea of rca going to xlr causes loss in sonics?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm tired, yeah basically the same thing. So, the idea of rca going to xlr causes loss in sonics?
No- there's no loss on RCA cables. RCA is fine, especially for short cables. XLR is just a connector, not a standard. The standard has to do with the input and output impedance, level and the fact that three conductors are used. The cable itself usually has a foil layer over a pair of wires that are twisted, along with bare wires that are twisted together to prevent them going in different directions- it's not a shield, it's a multi-strand conductor that's often called a 'drain' or 'sink'. The cable CAN have an additional braided wire shield, but it's not mandatory, nor is it required for the cable to do its job.

Twisted wires cancel 'common mode' interference- they can pass signals without interference without the bare wires just fine- telephone and ethernet cables use twisted pairs without shielding until the Cat6 or Cat7 level and even then, the shield is only needed in extreme cases.

Scroll down to the section about CMR/CMRR-

 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
@TheloniousEllington

You seem to be confused about the differences between balanced connections (with XLR plugs) and unbalanced connections (with RCA plugs). They both work in home audio. There is no magic improvement to sound quality if you go from unbalanced to balanced. If you already have a noticeable electromagnetic interference (EMI) or radio frequency interference (RFI), a balanced connection can help. Trust me, you'll hear it if you have such a problem.

Balanced connections are commonly used for live audio and in recording studios for microphones with long cables. Long cables (30 feet or more) carrying microphone (low voltage, 1-3 mV) or guitar pick-up signals can pick up noise from EMI or RFI. Balanced connections along with the differential circuits required inside the electronic gear can cancel out this noise. Read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio

In pro audio, balanced interconnect cables, with XLR plugs, have become standard for all situations. Having both balanced and unbalanced cables would just create unnecessary expense and confusion. In home audio, RCA plugs on unbalanced connections have long been the norm. RCA plugs are smaller, taking less space on crowded rear panels of electronic gear. In most homes, much shorter interconnect cables are used, and there is typically much less EMI or RFI noise. In home audio, the only signal sources with very low voltages (similar to microphones) are phonograph pick-ups. They are single-ended sources, unbalanced, and use shielded cables with RCA plugs. In most cases, they do not suffer from EMI/RFI noise.

It seems that balanced connections have become fashionable for preamp-to-amp connections. Many products offer these as a highly sought-after feature, usually at higher prices. The voltage levels between preamps and amps are much higher than microphone level, roughly 100 times higher. Interconnects at this level are much less prone to induced EMI or RFI noise, especially if they are less than 30 feet long. Standard RCA interconnects between a preamp and amp are fine, unless you have an unusually noisy environment with high levels of EMI or RFI. Its not worth paying a premium price just to have an amp with pro-style balanced inputs.

The new class D amps, such as your VTV, seem to offer balanced connections at much lower prices. As long as the price is reasonable, I certainly don't object. But often, as is your case, you have an unbalanced preamp level signal that you want to send to the balanced input of the amplifier. If you use two standard RCA interconnect cables, each with an RCA-to-XLR plug converter, as are shown below, it will work just fine. Understand that the signal going to your amp will be unbalanced, despite the amp's XLR plugs and fully balanced circuitry.
1643908147931.png
or 2 of these:
1643908203085.png


The adapter that TLS Guy recommended also works. It has the advantage of raising the signal voltage level, but it will not provide the same noise rejection as a balanced interconnect running between two pieces of fully balanced electronic gear. It also requires twice as many cables or converters.
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
The OP can use the following connection for unbalanced RCA to unbalancd XLR input ( See Figure 4 and connection #17):

 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
@TheloniousEllington

You seem to be confused about the differences between balanced connections (with XLR plugs) and unbalanced connections (with RCA plugs). They both work in home audio. There is no magic improvement to sound quality if you go from unbalanced to balanced. If you already have a noticeable electromagnetic interference (EMI) or radio frequency interference (RFI), a balanced connection can help. Trust me, you'll hear it if you have such a problem.

Balanced connections are commonly used for live audio and in recording studios for microphones with long cables. Long cables (30 feet or more) carrying microphone (low voltage, 1-3 mV) or guitar pick-up signals can pick up noise from EMI or RFI. Balanced connections along with the differential circuits required inside the electronic gear can cancel out this noise. Read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio

In pro audio, balanced interconnect cables, with XLR plugs, have become standard for all situations. Having both balanced and unbalanced cables would just create unnecessary expense and confusion. In home audio, RCA plugs on unbalanced connections have long been the norm. RCA plugs are smaller, taking less space on crowded rear panels of electronic gear. In most homes, much shorter interconnect cables are used, and there is typically much less EMI or RFI noise. In home audio, the only signal sources with very low voltages (similar to microphones) are phonograph pick-ups. They are single-ended sources, unbalanced, and use shielded cables with RCA plugs. In most cases, they do not suffer from EMI/RFI noise.

It seems that balanced connections have become fashionable for preamp-to-amp connections. Many products offer these as a highly sought-after feature, usually at higher prices. The voltage levels between preamps and amps are much higher than microphone level, roughly 100 times higher. Interconnects at this level are much less prone to induced EMI or RFI noise, especially if they are less than 30 feet long. Standard RCA interconnects between a preamp and amp are fine, unless you have an unusually noisy environment with high levels of EMI or RFI. Its not worth paying a premium price just to have an amp with pro-style balanced inputs.

The new class D amps, such as your VTV, seem to offer balanced connections at much lower prices. As long as the price is reasonable, I certainly don't object. But often, as is your case, you have an unbalanced preamp level signal that you want to send to the balanced input of the amplifier. If you use two standard RCA interconnect cables, each with an RCA-to-XLR plug converter, as are shown below, it will work just fine. Understand that the signal going to your amp will be unbalanced, despite the amp's XLR plugs and fully balanced circuitry.
View attachment 53561 or 2 of these: View attachment 53562

The adapter that TLS Guy recommended also works. It has the advantage of raising the signal voltage level, but it will not provide the same noise rejection as a balanced interconnect running between two pieces of fully balanced electronic gear. It also requires twice as many cables or converters.
He has a serious impedance and voltage mismatch between his receiver and his power amp. His receiver only has RCA line out, and his amp only pro XLR in, which is low impedance and low sensitivity. Using this active converter for him is absolutely essential, despite requiring more cables.
In addition, the active solution will help the S/N due to matching the impedance and voltage between the units, and avoiding turning up receiver gain excessively.

If an amp has both RCA and XLR, then often the XLR connection though balanced does not actually conform to professional practice unless there is a switch. Then your adapters work. If there is only an XLR input as is the case here, then it is far more likely will conform to professional practice and is NOT compatible with domestic practice, without ACTIVE conversion. The specs of his power amp show that its input follows professional practice to the letter and is NOT compatible with the RCA outs of a receiver.

This is an area not well understood unless you have experience in domestic and pro audio worlds, which I have had.
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
If the OP has an amp with a low voltage gain, then driving it to its rated output may become a problem with an unbalanced input.

In my situation, I'm driving QSC power amps which have a 32dB voltage gain. There is no problem driving them with the Denon AVR-X3700H pre-outs.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
If the OP has an amp with a low voltage gain, then driving it to its rated output may become a problem with an unbalanced input.

In my situation, I'm driving QSC power amps which have a 32dB voltage gain. There is no problem driving them with the Denon AVR-X3700H pre-outs.
Your QSC amps follow domestic specs closely. The input sensitivity is 1.2 volts and not 2.5 to 12 volts, and the input impedance is 20K Ohms and not 2.2 K Ohms.

The OP's rig will not perform well unless the large miss match he has is corrected.
 

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