RBH signature review part 1

[freeflap]

well,

after numerous emails with gene and others, my basement HT is finally done. This will be my first review, and will focus on the RBH speakers, as the other components are well reviewed elsewhere.

RBH 1266se front L/R
RBH 661 se center
RBH 61se rear
Axiom EP500 sub
Onix UFW 10 sub
Sanyo PLV Z4
Carada 118" wide criterion brilliant white
Oppo DVD971h player
HTPC (AMD athlon 2.7 ghz, 500 ram, 400 GH RAID western digital, and 5700 Nvidia videocard)
Comcast HD box (silver)
installer: Derek with casaplex
Panamax 5100 AC line conditioner / surge protector
APC battery back up for the sanyo projector

about me:
39 years old, married with 3 kids, and an avid music / ht afficianado. I am not in the audio / hifi industry in any capacity other than as a consumer. I have no relationship with any of the companies listed here. I've been interested in hifi since college and have 12 years of musical instrument experience (none recently unfortunately)

layout:
5.2 setup front projector in a large walk out basement 23' x 60' that is doing double duty as both HT and children's play area

wife's criteria:
no electronics visible in room
all cables need to be in wall or discretely placed

installer:
i used a local installer (Maryland) Derek at casaplex who i heartily recommend. they do great work and take their time; no rushing the details. the layout of my basement made the wiring a little tricky with the location of the floor joists and other obstructions that discouraged me from attempting a DIY wiring project.

speakers:
i chose the RBH line based strongly on audioholics recommendations. I was deciding between Onix (my family room already has onix ref's which are excellent also), Axiom and RBH. i would have been happy with any of them and was curious how the RBH would sound. my installer was not an RBH dealer, but with persistence i was able to twist his arm and he is now a dealer. gene had recommended the 661 SE/R line for LCR, however, the issue of speaker stands made me concerned with the kids. i wanted floor standing speakers from a stability point, plus the extra bass from the 12" woofer is a nice added feature, so went with the 1266 instead for fronts. they are the SE and not the SE/R line; just wasn't in the budget. The speakers have the basic black finish with black grills. Yes, you are right: I bought them, never having seen or listened to them. A leap of faith? perhaps. but i could have always returned them if I didn't like them.

the center has black mid woofers instead of the usual aluminum drivers. apparently a large RBH client had ordered all black drivers so the aluminum wouldn't shine through the grills. The center is mounted on the wall using a metal U bracket which was manufactured by RBH. They do NOT advertise this bracket, so if you want it, you must inform your installer to order it for you. The wall the center and screen are mounted to is brick behind the sheet rock, so the speaker and screen and very securely mounted with brick anchors.

rears are direct not the dipole type. They are mounted on the rear wall at 7' elevation on custom wall stands. I chose the 61se instead of the 66se based upon some feeback I received direct from RBH and others. the consensus was the 66se are excellent for side speakers but the direct radiator is better for rears. So i took their advice. In addition, i have a small but growing collection of 5.1 audio discs and the idea of a dipole rear did not sit well with me, hence, the 61se were voted in. the height of the rears was mandated by two issues: the higher position is generally preferred for the surround effect, and the height gets them out of the way of flying object from my kids.

Misc: the wiring is all in-wall 12 gauge OFC belden. An IR repeater system was used to control the various electronics. I opted for an IR repeater instead of a Universal RF remote. I did this to appease my wife. We have the same Yamaha 2600 receiver / preamp upstairs, using the same remote avoided having her learn a new sequence of buttons.

Review:
I have had the system up and running for over a month now. Needless to say, I have been intently listening to the system nearly everynight. The source material has varied from comcast HD programming, various DVD's and music CD's, as well as several music DTS and DVD video / audio discs.

Out of the box impression:
well built. excellent fit and finish. the grills are sturdy with metal binding feet, which was a nice surprise. i've seen a lot of well built speakers with beautiful finishes paired with wimpy cheap grills. Not an issue if you don't use the grills, but again, kids + wife= grills on. the basic black woodgrain finish is nothing special to look at, but my budget did not allow for the 30 or so custom veneers that RBH offers. Plus, i wanted them NOW which is always available in basic black. At the same time, the basic finish is solid and looks well made. If it weren't for the fact that no one makes a black oak grain in real wood veneer, then you wouldn't know it wasn't veneer. it is not shiny except for the top and bottom glossy finish. the four "stabilizer" feet add an inch or so of extra stability to the 1266 which are TALL. i would have preferred feet that stuck out the sides an extra inch on either side, but with spikes in, they are actually quite stable.

the 661 se is a large speaker. much bigger than it looks on the webpage. the U bracket is again, nothing special but is very strong and sturdy as well as vibration free. the bracket allows for a range of angles to rotated the 661 up or down. it does not swivel (who needs that ? )

the 61se are also larger in life than photos. My wife questioned the use of them as rears as they seemed large. She asked about inwalls for the rears. “well, we could do that, but i think they are a lot more $$”. a good line in case anyone wants to use it.

Initial 5 minutes of play time:
muddy bass, etchy and very forward sounding. I let them run overnight with the radio on, just loud enough we couldn't hear them upstairs.

First 10 hours:
i ran the auto setup using the yamaha YPAO program. It's very cool. The parametric feature is amazing for a receiver. It got the general tonal balance right, but i was not in agreement with the level matching. Initially, i could not hear the rear speakers during action 5.1 movies. Perhaps that is a limitation of my ears, and not the microphone, but in either case, it's better now. My front left speaker is somewhat corner loaded and initially produced a lumpy heavy upper bass from that speaker. The parametric EQ fixed that as well.

First of all, timbre matching is a very real issue. Speakers all have a characteristic sound, and getting matching speakers front and rear is key to producing a convincing surround environment. I had been using mismatched speakers in the basement until the RBH arrived and the difference is dramatic. EVEN my wife noticed a huge difference. Just so you know, whenever the bored disinterested spouse who did not want the thing in the first place, notices an improvement, it's usually a quantum leap better.

amazing detail and dynamics. they hit hard and quick. the sound is neutral without over or under emphasizing any frequency range. the 1266se go down to about 25-30 hz before they roll off.

the location of my rear surrounds is about 10' behind the listening position and 7' above the floor. they project a convincing front / rear spacial surround effect and the 61se are amazingly detailed and deep for just a bookshelf speaker.

-- end part 1 --

 

[freeflap]

RBH review part 2

i had to break up the review into two parts given forum limits. sorry.


Random listening notes:

HD: “Mr. And Mrs. Smith”: One of the most enjoyable aspects of these speakers is their dynamics and realism. During the fight scene in “mr and mrs smith” brad pitt and angelina break a lot of stuff, and the broken glass scenes had an amazingly tactile effect that made me believe that glass was breaking right in my basement. Many good speakers can produce a sound “like” broken glass. Very few can convince you that there is now a lot of broken glass all over your basement floor.

DVD-audio: Beethoven Symphony #9: large symphonic pieces remain in my opinion the hardest test of any speaker. It is asking a lot of a square box to sound like 40+ different instruments playing at the same time. Large groups of stringed instruments often have a “sizzly” sound. Sorry, it's the best word I can think of. This is very annoying to me, as having 12 years of violin practice, i know what a group of string instruments should sound like. These 1266se come as close to correct as I've heard in a long time.

DVD-audio: Steeley Dan: the vocals are clear and clean. The bass is well defined. Interestingly, when i play it from the hard drive HTPC, the tempo is a bit fast. When played from the Oppo, the tempo is slower and more to what i am familiar with. The Axiom Sub is amazing and although i bought it for movies, it is clean and tight enough for music as well

CD: brian bomberg: jaco. This is my first brian bomberg cd. Overall i am more impressed with his technique than the actual music tracks. The bass is clear and the decay of the notes is well addressed. Again, the bass is tight and brassy with excellent detail and texture.

DVD: Master and Commander: during the first encounter with the “Acheron” ship, the cannon fire and subsequent explosive destruction of the wooden hull of the ship is very convincing. The rear 61se hold their own quite well as there is a lot of rear sound effects during this scene. The rear soundstage travels well between the 61se's. The center channel keeps pace with the front 1266se well and the dialog is clear and distinct.

DVD: war of the worlds: this is an amazing movie. The sound track far excels over the cinematography. I am just not a fan of the grainy washed out color scheme that steven spielberg seems to like in his more recent movies (saving private ryan, minority report, wotw). However, this is an excellent movie to demo a sound system with. The subwoofer got a severe workout and kept up with the movie well. The scene in the basement, where tom cruise meets tim robbins, has some excellent water effects. The sounds of the water dripping around the room, again, made for a convincing effect.

Summary:

Pros:
i am more than pleased with this system. If i had to describe it in one word: accurate. They are clean fast speakers that do the most important thing in producing as un-colored a sound as i've heard. The speed of the speakers is hard to describe. For lack of a better word, they sound fast. When glass breaks, metal dents, or wood shatters, or water drops fall, they all sound very real without being “bright”. They are not fatiguing even at higher volumes for extended listening sessions. These sound effects are not what most reviewers seem to focus on, but it is what singles out these speakers from other speakers that i've heard. I recently went to bestbuy / magnolia to listen to their setups, and although different room / speaker placement / source, etc... i did not hear anything that even came close. The martin logans were the only speakers that were in the same league. Their open airy feel, although very pleasant, was not as accurate to my ear. Yes, you could argue apples / oranges as not an identical setup, but the difference was not subtle.

Cons:
the bass from the 1266se is very powerful, and for music is sometimes too much. Especially with my front left speaker corner loaded. I think this is more a placement issue than a speaker issue. For 2 channel music i would not use the “direct 2 channel” mode as it runs an unfiltered signal to the fronts and is too bass heavy. Another option would be to disconnect the 12” from the biamp channels and just run the speaker top half. The rear 61se although excellent, are not an even match for the fronts. If i did it again, i'd opt for 2 661se for the rears and orient them vertically. (and is a possible “Upgrade” for my not too distant future...) The only other comment about the 1266se are that they are large and need a large room to project into.

Other changes? I'd have my installer run 2 sets of speaker wire for my fronts so i can bi-amp, or send the 12” woofer section just the LFE channel. Now that the walls have been patched and painted, it would be a costly change. I'm not sure if i'd hear a difference, but again, it would have made a little more sense to use in essence, all 5 channels with the same speakers. Plus, it would have made my switch to T2's more easy

Thx. i welcome your comments.

 

[Tomorrow]

well,

after numerous emails with gene and others, my basement HT is finally done. This will be my first review, and will focus on the RBH speakers

Initial 5 minutes of play time:
muddy bass, etchy and very forward sounding. I let them run overnight with the radio on, just loud enough we couldn't hear them upstairs.

amazing detail and dynamics. they hit hard and quick. the sound is neutral without over or under emphasizing any frequency range. the 1266se go down to about 25-30 hz before they roll off.

the location of my rear surrounds is about 10' behind the listening position and 7' above the floor. they project a convincing front / rear spacial surround effect and the 61se are amazingly detailed and deep for just a bookshelf speaker. -

Freeflap, many thanks for the detailed, informative, and interesting review. It's obvious you put a lot of time into, not only your home setup, but the report as well.

It was so interesting, I almost hate to ask the questions that I am, but...well, let me charge forward, here. My motivation in asking these questions is not to provoke or argue in any way. I'm trying to learn about this fascinating hobby.

Gene has undoubtedly steered you in a fine direction toward the acquisition of the RBH speakers (which I have not heard). But Gene has also clearly stated that speaker 'break-in' is not to be thought of as much of a big deal. Here you have made this statement, "Initial 5 minutes of play time:
muddy bass, etchy and very forward sounding", and then you later sing praises of the speakers' tightness, dynamics, etc., seemingly indicating a very large improvement in sound. I wonder if you could elaborate upon the level of improvement in the sound and why you think it occurred.

Secondly, I'm wondering why you don't just set the LFE Out to Subwoofer and raise the crossover to your mains to eliminate the unwanted bass and LFE. Perhaps I misunderstand the issue there. ??

Congrats (and envy) on your new system.

 

[freeflap]

thx for the feedback

here's a quote from the RBH website:

Q: What is meant by "breaking a speaker in"?
A: When first purchasing an RBH loudspeaker please be aware of the break-in process that will normally occur during the first several hours of operation. During this period the driver suspensions will loosen. This affect is most noticeable with the woofer or low frequency driver in a system. As the woofer suspension loosens, the resonant frequency of the driver decreases and the efficiency increases slightly. The increase in low frequency output will change the tonal balance of the speaker system resulting in a warmer sound with better bass definition and extension.

http://www.rbhsound.com/techsupport.shtml

i think there is a lot of debate about speaker break in. Most of the claims are just nonsense. however, in this case, the manufacturer is claiming that their speakers show some break in. i don't think that it takes months either, but rather a couple hours as noted above. the rubber surround varies from manufacturer and the thickness / stiffness of the material rubber vs. foam, will often dictate whether or not break in is an issue. Yes, it's true the issue affects the woofer and midrange more than the tweeter given the size / thickness of the surround materials.


I have not experimented alot with the xo settings. I was generally happy with the YPAO settings and found no need to tinker with it, other than what i wrote above re the rear 61se. I use the system most for HT and thus, i like the added bass support the 12" woofers provide. Eventhough the Axiom EP500 is an amazingly powerful sub, i am tempted to add another (upgraditis). If i do so, i may switch the mains to "small". also, remember the excess upper bass was primarily from one speaker not both. the Yamaha YPAO fixed it, and i was happy to leave it at that.

thx. i will try to get updated pics with the center channel wall mount. sorry the pics i added were old.

 

[gene]

Freeflap;

Some comments for you:

Great review. Thanks for your attention to detail.
I love the excuse of inwalls costing more money
Do NOT disable the 12" woofers of the 1266's. The top end of the speaker is crossed over above 100Hz. The side woofer is essential.

It sounds to me that your setup needs some tweaking. Here are my suggestions.

Option #1: Cross over the 1266's at 80Hz and always run your 2 subs in every listening mode.

Option 2: Run the 1266s fullrange and get a PEQ to connect to your 2 subs.

Your installer should use an RTA to measure your inroom response (with all 4 subs active) at the primary listening positions to determine optimal subwoofer placements and ensure smooth bass response.

Some Tips:
Get those 1266's at least 3-4ft off the back walls.
Turn off YPAO and see if you prefer non eq'ed sound
If your seats are near back wall, move them to 2/3 the length of the room instead.
Get a stand foir your center channel and move that sub to the left side or perhaps to the back of the room.

 

[freeflap]

thx gene.

i always appreciate your thoughts and comments.

1. i will try the 80 hz xo. but in "pure direct" mode on the yamaha, there is NO LFE output. i can just run 2 channel stereo and keep the subs in.

2. i have the ONIX R-DES parametric EQ on order. should be here monday. i think this will help to even out the bass a bit.

3. sorry the pics are old. the center channel is wall mounted on a bracket just under the screen. i was thinking ofi moving the EP500 closer to the center just for looks and then would run the RDES curve to see if it helped / hurt. again, i am tempted to add another EP500 to the other side for aethetic symmetry (i don't need it; the single EP500 is already massive overkill) and move the UFW 10 to another room.

i will update the center pics with the new wall bracket.

i do have them pulled away from the back wall about 1.5 feet. more?

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Freeflap,

Great review, and very nice system. It sounds like you've got a winner there. That huge screen is awesome. I can't even fathom college football in your HT room. It's probably better than being there live.

I wanted to pick your brain on how your dual Titanic subs upstairs compared to the subs you've got in your downstairs HT system. What are the pro's/con's of each? It's not often we see someone with a Titanic DIY, an EP500, and a UFW10.

BTW, I really like the "peep hole" for the projector. Very creative!

 

[freeflap]

Freeflap,

Great review, and very nice system. It sounds like you've got a winner there. That huge screen is awesome. I can't even fathom college football in your HT room. It's probably better than being there live.

I wanted to pick your brain on how your dual Titanic subs upstairs compared to the subs you've got in your downstairs HT system. What are the pro's/con's of each? It's not often we see someone with a Titanic DIY, an EP500, and a UFW10.

BTW, I really like the "peep hole" for the projector. Very creative!

Thx for the feedback buckeye. I appreciate it.

The titanic subs began as adire audio shiva III subs. They are 24” cubes ¾” MDF and have 4” flared ports. They are driven by a pro amp, samson 1500. they are painted with flat black paint and are hidden behind a screen in my entertainment wall unit (made by my father-in-law). After a couple months, one shiva blew the spider apart. I was told it was because my amp was too powerful (750watts / 4 ohm) and not covered by the warranty. I had read some favorable reviews on the titanic and decided to try it. I was immediately surprised by the quality construction. The basket is cast vs stamped, the connectors and wiring are high quality and it has a higher power rating. The titanic put out deep powerful bass. It was so impressive, that i replaced the other shiva with a titanic as well. Unfortunately, the box is too big for the titanic given the parameters of the driver. This produces deep bass, but it rolls off at a higher frequency. As a result, the twin titanics make great powerful clean bass but only into the 30's. The roll off is sigficant at 25 hz test tone, and virtually useless at 20hz.

The EP500 is an amazing sub. Very powerful and clean and hits to 20hz without difficultly. In my basement, the EP500 is overkill already, in a much larger room. Even though the UFW 10 helps even out nulls, it does not make any real deep bass, nor was it designed to. The UFW 10 is very tight and is an excellent music sub or ht if the room is small or in an apartment and you don't want to upset the neighbors.

In terms of cost, of course the DIY approach cannot be beat. My two titanics, all the wood, supplies, wiring, and samson amp were ~$1000 (not including labor), which is $200 less than the one EP500. Plus, DIY projects are a lot of fun. However, it lacks the built in amp, or DSP control of the axiom.

I heartily recommend that if you haven't done it, you should try a DIY project. It is a great project to do, and now, ************ sells the finished wood cabinet. You just assemble and go.

The titanic is a great sub for the money, but again, the parameters of the driver do not include deep bass at 20hz or lower. If you can forgive the last 5 hz, then it's a winner. I have an Onix RDES unit on the way. It should help fix this problem and if it can balance out the deep bass in the 20's, then it will be a huge success.

What's next? I will likely add another EP500 and move the UFW 10 to my office. Can't wait...