S

superhornet59

Audiophyte
Hey everyone, Matt here and I just joined so hello!

My question is, inside a typical speaker you have a simple ferromagnet, but I can get a hold of up to N55 Neodymium magnets, which are 15 times stronger then a ferromagnet for their size.

Now I know that if I replaced the ferromagent with one of these new magnets, I could get a much higher output because the speaker would be more efficient in accelerating the cone with power provided.

What I dont know, though, is if it will affect the sound itself. I know the frequency is changing at the same rate so the cone should be responding at the same speed, but because of the different characteristics of the speaker, I dont know if I'll have to do something about the enclosure to 're-tune' it, and if there are any other related problems affecting sound quality.

what do you guys think?

-Matt
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Don't replace your Magnets. Period.

The magnet isn't the part of the speaker that handles the "power", that's the voice coil. The rest of the driver suspension needs to be beefed up in order to handle the extra power. In th end, you'd be better off with a different driver, and then a different Xover, and finally a different box.

Buy different speakers.

SheepStar
 
S

superhornet59

Audiophyte
No you see, the voice coil creates a magnet field as current is run through it, the voice coil surrounds a magnet, depending on the field the voice coil is moved away or towards the magnet.

If you took out the magnet but still put current through the coil, it wouldnt do anything. why? no magnetic field to react against. with magnetic fields opposites attract and likes repel, so depending on the polarity of the voice coil in relation to the stationary magnet, the coil (along with diaphram and all) is pulled towards/ pushed away from the magnet.

Pumping alot of current into your voice coil causes distortion because even though its putting out a big magnetic field. This is because the ferromaget isn't strong enough to push/ pull the diaphram with enough speed to keep up with the changing frequency, so the speaker changes direction too soon. If you know anything about auto mechanics its like having your engines spark timing too early.

A neodmium magnet can push/ pull with alot more force, so when current is put through the voice coil the magnet can push/ pull with enough force to overcome the inertia of the cone moving at higher speeds, which means better efficiency, leading to a higher dB count.

-Matt
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
No you see, the voice coil creates a magnet field as current is run through it, the voice coil surrounds a magnet, depending on the field the voice coil is moved away or towards the magnet.

If you took out the magnet but still put current through the coil, it wouldnt do anything. why? no magnetic field to react against. with magnetic fields opposites attract and likes repel, so depending on the polarity of the voice coil in relation to the stationary magnet, the coil (along with diaphram and all) is pulled towards/ pushed away from the magnet.

Pumping alot of current into your voice coil causes distortion because even though its putting out a big magnetic field. This is because the ferromaget isn't strong enough to push/ pull the diaphram with enough speed to keep up with the changing frequency, so the speaker changes direction too soon. If you know anything about auto mechanics its like having your engines spark timing too early.

A neodmium magnet can push/ pull with alot more force, so when current is put through the voice coil the magnet can push/ pull with enough force to overcome the inertia of the cone moving at higher speeds, which means better efficiency, leading to a higher dB count.

-Matt
Neodymium Magnets have a thermal issue if I remember correctly. I think AH has an article on it.

Either way, you can't just "swap" the magnet and have it work like new. The BL will be different and it will not be the same driver. Xover and Box parameters would need to be changed.

SheepStar
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
the ferromaget isn't strong enough to push/ pull the diaphram with enough speed to keep up with the changing frequency, so the speaker changes direction too soon.
Do you mean the magnet is not strong enough to force the speaker to follow its inputs in a linear fashion and has lost control of the diaphragm?


If you know anything about auto mechanics its like having your engines spark timing too early.
Setting your spark timing too early is simply an adjustment error even if the ignition system is functioning perfectly and doing exactly what it is told. The better analogy, if I get what you're saying above, would be pre-ignition, where the fuel combusts before the spark signal from the distributor. The engine no longer has control of the timing of combustion, as the magnet no longer has control of the movement of the diaphragm.
 
S

superhornet59

Audiophyte
Sheep, your right about the thermal issues, these magnets will lose there magnetism at less that 100 degrees celcius, newer magnets have coatings that help prevent this, but in the end these will never be infinite duty cycle speakers at full power, they will need to cool off a bit after an extended period of full volume.

Davemcc, the way I refer this to spark timing is that all engines are timed so the flame front reaches the piston exactly at tdc, so the piston is just starting to move back down and the flame will assist in this.

If your spark timing is far too early, or an even better example, if you have detonation, the flame front reaches the piston as its still moving up, which puts huge stress on the parts because of the opposing force of momentum with the combustion chamber pressure.

This sudden change in direction is very rough unlike the smooth push of a properly firing charge, if the piston is at tdc its already overcome its momentum and just starting to make its way back down as the flame pushes it (relatively) gently down the cylinder, thats efficient. slamming it back down before that energy has dissipated is not.

Same thing with a speaker, you'll notice when the speaker is off it stays in a certain position, this is because of the spring like action of the supension. As the diaphram reaches the end of its 'stroke', the suspension is pulling it back. unlike a crankshaft, this is more flexible in terms of when its best to start the return stroke (because the force builds gradually), so the speaker can operate effectively under different frequencies where it might be returning earlier/ later, within certain design limits of course.

So now that the suspension has stopped the cone, the return signal begins pulling the diaphragm back down.

Now, if you pump too much power into those speakers, the problem is the magnet cant push/ pull with enough force, so the diaphram doesnt make it to the top of its stroke before the return signal comes. The diaphram is then pulled back before the suspension has had the chance to absorb its momentum.

This is like detonation in your engine. The result is a 'slamming' back of the cone, causing a sudden drop in pressure infront and pressure spike behind. (or vice versa depending on whether its at the top or bottom of its stroke) this creates a sharp cracking sound. Thats one kind of distortion, theres different kinds dependning on the frequence and input power but this kind of thing is the reason for most high volume distortion (signal noise is an entirely seperate issue).

That voice coil creates a very powerful magneti field, but sadly the ferromagnet doesn't. When the diaphragm is being pushed out, you could think of it like pushing against a large object.

If you were top push really hard againt a big sponge, you would be pushed back a bit, but mostly your arms would be thrust into the sponge. The weak field of a ferromagnet can also be 'penetrated' this way simply because the interia is too great to push the diaphragm away fast enough. it still pushes but its sort of half-assed.

A neodymium magnet is more like a wall, and pushing it results in a greater push back, meaning more output. the idea is theres no extra input, its just a more efficient force.

Its like pushing too like-pole ferromagnets together, it requires a force (intertia of the diaphragm) but it can be done pretty easily. neodmyium magnets are much stronger, unless they are very small I strongly doubt you will be able to push them together. This way they overcome intertia much more effectively.

A Neodymium magnet, with higher strength, pushes/ pulls the diaphram faster, so even with higher energy, the coil is moving fast enough that it does reach the top of its stroke before the return signal comes, meaning it can operate efficiently without distortion at higher energies (and is simply more efficient at lower energys because it pushes/ pulls the cone faster with the same signal, causing an increase in dB).

Thats why all the best speakers are using them, but they're cutting corners, theyre using something like N40-N45 magnets, which definately are strong but N55 is the highest strength magnets you can get and you really can tell.


-Matt
 
T

Tod

Audioholic
Um, buy a cheap old pair of speakers off craigslist and experiment?
 
S

superhornet59

Audiophyte
speakers are cheap. neodymium magnets are not.

-Matt
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Even if all this mumbo jumbo works, and it doesn't absolutely DESTROY the speaker, it's still not worth the effort. Just buy better speakers. I'm pretty sure there is far more things you could do to improve the sound of your system (this IS what your after, right?) then supplementing the magnets.

SheepStar
 
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E

EnzoPolotso

Audioholic Intern
You seem pretty confident about it, so go for it.
 
B

bandit

Audioholic
I believe that Neodymium magnets have been in use in loudspeakers for quite some time. If i recall- the new SVS speaker line is using this in their tweeters. I think Clint commented on it. Also - I believe I've seen this in the JBL pro line awhile ago, but i haven't looked lately.

I think their will be a lot to consider in what you are going to do. There are several factors that affect overall loudspeaker performance, and tinkering may make things worse than better, as the original designers took everything (hopefully) into account when they designed their systems, not just he strengh of the magnet assembly.

I read a rather facinating article years ago regarding magnet weights that a respected speaker manufacturer was using on his low frequency drivers. There was some reference to that fact that when they increased the magnetic strength (size of magnet) on the driver, its effeciency actually went down. I don't recall the exact reason they gave, but all I can imagine that in this particular application a certain amount of driver overshoot was a desirable thing. (as crazy as that sounds)

Anyhow - I think many factors go into the design of quality loudspeaker system and I'm sure magnet strengh play into it. I must admit it is quite fun to play though. Just one thought, if you do one driver in a system and it does infact increase its effeciency you'll probably have to compensate for this in the crossover or similarly increase the effeciency of the other drivers as well... or you may have one driver that 'stands out' and overbears the others.

Have fun - Bandit
 
E

edmcanuck

Audioholic
You started this thread stating that you had a question. You proceeded to try and prove to everyone that you know everything about speaker design. You've rebuffed attempts people have made to tell you that you're wasting your time and aren't as wise as you think. So really, go for it... you clearly don't need or want the board's feedback.
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
You started this thread stating that you had a question. You proceeded to try and prove to everyone that you know everything about speaker design. You've rebuffed attempts people have made to tell you that you're wasting your time and aren't as wise as you think. So really, go for it... you clearly don't need or want the board's feedback.
You sir, are a God among insects.

SheepStar
 
N

Nuglets

Full Audioholic
If your spark timing is far too early, or an even better example, if you have detonation, the flame front reaches the piston as its still moving up, which puts huge stress on the parts because of the opposing force of momentum with the combustion chamber pressure.
Yeah you're probably right about that but a more common example of this is like dave described which is referred to as knock. It is cause by running a fuel that isn't suited for high compression engines and as a result the fuel will spontaneously combust under pressure before the cylinder hits TDC. This will happen regardless of ignition timing.
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
This would be like putting jet fuel in your car. Will it make it run faster? Sure, for a few seconds before it all blows up.:eek:
Too much power in an assembly that's not meant for it.
 
obscbyclouds

obscbyclouds

Senior Audioholic
This would be like putting jet fuel in your car. Will it make it run faster? Sure, for a few seconds before it all blows up.:eek:
Too much power in an assembly that's not meant for it.
Actually, Jet Fuel is Kerosene with some additives (AKA diesel), so it would not make it run any faster, and would likely run very very poorly, as diesel is less explosive than gasoline and contains less energy by weight.
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
Actually, Jet Fuel is Kerosene with some additives (AKA diesel), so it would not make it run any faster, and would likely run very very poorly, as diesel is less explosive than gasoline and contains less energy by weight.
While right I think this car analogy has been taken too far. The real point being there is no reason to replace the magnets on your drivers and if you do it most likely won't turn out as hoped with better lows. You will probably just ruin the driver itself.
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
It really comes down to this: A speaker system is just that, a system. You cannot change one part in a system without accounting for its effect on all of the other parts.
 
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