Question about SoundStage of Headphones

[ace111y]

I listened to the dt 880 32 ohm version on an iphone and the soundstage was to small for my liking,
question is if the 250 ohm version will have a bigger/wider soundstage because overall I did enjoy the headphone.

I have also managed to listen to the 599 hd and 579 hd of sennhesier and I preffered the 599 in terms of sound quailty and soundstage, the 579 had a too big of a soundstage for me.
(I dont know which one has a bigger soundstage but it felt like the 579 has a wider soundstage)
So then I heard alot of people prefered the 598 hd over the 599 hd and my question is does the 598 have a similar soundstage to the 579 or is it similar to the 599s and the main difference is the higher bass on them.

Im inbetween headphones trying to decide which one to go with.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

You wont get the same soundstage from DT880 when compared to Sennheiser, DT990 gets closer but they are not as neutral as Sennheiser. HD598 should be quite close to HD599 as HD599 is replacing HD598, havent heard the HD599 so cant say much about them personally.

 

[TLS Guy]

Headphones, even good ones, do not have a realistic sound stage playing most recordings.. In order for that to happen you need a "Dummy Head" recording or at least one made with two omni mics spaced by a head width and a baffle between them.

"Dummy head" recordings are rare as they do not play back well on speakers. The latter technique I mention plays well on phones and speakers for smaller groups.

I have made very good solo and small chamber group recordings using that technique. It was popular in France some years ago.

Neumann do have a "Dummy Head" set up on the market, or did. It was very expensive and the demand for recordings requiring only headphone playback has been limited.

 

[davidscott]

Had some AKG 240 sextette phones back in the early 80s which consisted of an active driver and some passive radiators. The sound seemed more spacious than my Senn HD 420s. But that was a long time ago.

 

[Joe B]

Headphones, even good ones, do not have a realistic sound stage playing most recordings.. In order for that to happen you need a "Dummy Head" recording or at least one made with two omni mics spaced by a head width and a baffle between them.

"Dummy head" recordings are rare as they do not play back well on speakers. The latter technique I mention plays well on phones and speakers for smaller groups.

I have made very good solo and small chamber group recordings using that technique. It was popular in France some years ago.

Neumann do have a "Dummy Head" set up on the market, or did. It was very expensive and the demand for recordings requiring only headphone playback has been limited.

"The latter technique I mention plays well on phones and speakers for smaller groups."
Binaural recordings work well not only for small chamber groups but for any size group. These two binaural recordings by Newport Classic are both of a full orchestra, and the sound on a good headphone set up is amazing:

The Neumann KU 100 binaural head used in the recordings was placed 20 feet behind the conductor and 10 feet above his head. Listening with eyes closed, you are there. "Chasing the Dragon" records is still exploring the use of the Neumann system.

"Headphones, even good ones, do not have a realistic sound stage playing most recordings."
I listen almost exclusively to classical music, and I would disagree with this as a blanket statement when it comes to classical recordings. I listen to a lot of choral music which is recorded in cathedrals by engineers seeking particular acoustics for their recording. The sound stage presented on some of these recordings is almost as good as a binaural recording, which is about as good as it gets.

 

[TLS Guy]

"The latter technique I mention plays well on phones and speakers for smaller groups."
Binaural recordings work well not only for small chamber groups but for any size group. These two binaural recordings by Newport Classic are both of a full orchestra, and the sound on a good headphone set up is amazing:

The Neumann KU 100 binaural head used in the recordings was placed 20 feet behind the conductor and 10 feet above his head. Listening with eyes closed, you are there. "Chasing the Dragon" records is still exploring the use of the Neumann system.

"Headphones, even good ones, do not have a realistic sound stage playing most recordings."

I listen almost exclusively to classical music, and I would disagree with this as a blanket statement when it comes to classical recordings. I listen to a lot of choral music which is recorded in cathedrals by engineers seeking particular acoustics for their recording. The sound stage presented on some of these recordings is almost as good as a binaural recording, which is about as good as it gets.

Dummy Head and ORFT are different. Certainly Dummy Head is the best for phones, but the latter works well both ways, but not as well as my Neumann SM 69 FET for large forces in big spaces.

I think there is a lot of individual variation in listeners reaction to headphones. I have to say headphone listening is far from my first choice for a good listening experience and something I only will do if I have to. No phones come close to the wonderful sound stage that can be created with fine speakers.

This is to the extent that I could never engineer a good mix monitoring with head phones and pretty much always set up monitoring speakers.

 

[Joe B]

Dummy Head and ORFT are different. Certainly Dummy Head is the best for phones, but the latter works well both ways, but not as well as my Neumann SM 69 FET for large forces in big spaces.

I think there is a lot of individual variation in listeners reaction to headphones. I have to say headphone listening is far from my first choice for a good listening experience and something I only will do if I have to. No phones come close to the wonderful sound stage that can be created with fine speakers.

This is to the extent that I could never engineer a good mix monitoring with head phones and pretty much always set up monitoring speakers.

Sorry, it sounds like you think I made a comparison between "Dummy Head" and "ORFT"? I had to search online to find out what ORFT is. I certainly never said anything about it.

I listen to my headphone rig early in the morning and late at night so as not to disturb the house. I prefer listening to my 5.1 system. But I disagree that "No phones come close". I think they can come close. And with a good source, headphone amp, and a nice set of cans, they very often do come close.

I will leave the engineering comments alone as I have no knowledge or experience in this area. But I do know that most engineers feel as you do and use quality monitoring speakers on the job.

I only made a post on this thread because I think your first sentence in post #3 is not true. As headphones eliminate room acoustics from the listening equation, a good headphone set up can sound great.

 

[TLS Guy]

Sorry, it sounds like you think I made a comparison between "Dummy Head" and "ORFT"? I had to search online to find out what ORFT is. I certainly never said anything about it.

I listen to my headphone rig early in the morning and late at night so as not to disturb the house. I prefer listening to my 5.1 system. But I disagree that "No phones come close". I think they can come close. And with a good source, headphone amp, and a nice set of cans, they very often do come close.

I will leave the engineering comments alone as I have no knowledge or experience in this area. But I do know that most engineers feel as you do and use quality monitoring speakers on the job.

I only made a post on this thread because I think your first sentence in post #3 is not true. As headphones eliminate room acoustics from the listening equation, a good headphone set up can sound great.

I will give you a sounding good, but to me never great.

I don't think eliminating room acoustics a virtue, but a problem. I think room reflections are actually essential to satisfying reproduction. Trying to deaden rooms with acoustic treatments of various kinds is a bad mistake. They can however make bad speakers seem somewhat less bad. In most rooms those acoustic treatments do not enhance good speakers but do the reverse.

To me and I know to not all, headphone listening elicits that awful "fat head" syndrome that so many have described. To me most sources as conventionally produced can sound good in terms of balance, except the bass which is never natural with headphones, but realistic reproduction no way.

 

[Joe B]

I will give you a sounding good, but to me never great.

I don't think eliminating room acoustics a virtue, but a problem. I think room reflections are actually essential to satisfying reproduction. Trying to deaden rooms with acoustic treatments of various kinds is a bad mistake. They can however make bad speakers seem somewhat less bad. In most rooms those acoustic treatments do not enhance good speakers but do the reverse.

To me and I know to not all, headphone listening elicits that awful "fat head" syndrome that so many have described. To me most sources as conventionally produced can sound good in terms of balance, except the bass which is never natural with headphones, but realistic reproduction no way.

I will give you a sounding good, but to me never great.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I don't think eliminating room acoustics a virtue, but a problem. I think room reflections are actually essential to satisfying reproduction. Trying to deaden rooms with acoustic treatments of various kinds is a bad mistake. They can however make bad speakers seem somewhat less bad. In most rooms those acoustic treatments do not enhance good speakers but do the reverse.
I actually didn't say anything about how room acoustics should be approached, only that it is not in the "listening equation" when using headphones. I am not an acoustic engineer, but I believe people use room treatments to eliminate unwanted sound reflections that muddle the listening experience during playback, particularly in the low end of the spectrum. I don't think people expect acoustic treatments to enhance their speakers. I believe they use them to enhance the listening experience.
I also didn't say anything about trying to deaden a room's natural acoustics. Perhaps you're not responding to me, but taking this opportunity to school me. Certainly, you are not responding to something I said. Perhaps I'm just getting confused, as your quoting my post prior to stating your educational information.

To me most sources as conventionally produced can sound good in terms of balance, except the bass which is never natural with headphones, but realistic reproduction no way.
I'll grant you that listening to an organ recording in my living room with my 5.1 system can generate enough pressure where I feel the bass.....something which headphones can never accomplish. But to say that headphones can not reproduce bass which sounds natural or realistic is unreasonable......in my opinion.