Puzzling difference in similar speakers.

[Pyrrho]

I have noticed a curious difference between Apogee and Magnepan speakers.

If one looks at the manual for the Apogee Stage speakers, which are a full range "ribbon" speaker (they are what Magnepan typically calls "quasi-ribbon"), one finds that toe-in is not recommended, and if it is done, it should be extremely slight:

http://www.apogeespeakers.com/manuals/stage_manual.pdf

In other words, Apogee recommended placing them basically parallel to the wall behind them in a normal room.


If one looks at the manual for a Magnepan speaker of similar design, one finds that they recommend that the speakers be toed-in. In other words, they recommend that the speakers not be placed parallel to the back wall, but aimed more at the listener. This is true of their new model MG 1.7, which is a pure "quasi-ribbon" speaker:

http://www.magnepan.com/content/binary/pdf_manuals/manual_17.pdf

The same recommendation is true of every other Magnepan speaker that I have checked.


Now, one might be tempted to think that one of them is just wrong in what they recommend, but I happen to own a pair of Apogee Stage speakers, and have a brother with a pair of Magnepan speakers, and I can say from personal experience that each manufacturer gives the right recommendation for their own product (as, of course, they should). So we now get to my question. Why is it that the one sounds better with significant toe-in, and the other sounds better without significant toe-in?

With most speakers that I have heard, they sound best aimed more or less at the listener, or in other words, toed-in, though obviously truly omnidirectional speakers would not be that way, and anything that has a very wide dispersion, one would normally think that toe-in would be generally irrelevant (as with an old pair of JBL L36 speakers I have, which subjectively appear to have an incredibly broad dispersion pattern). But in the case of the Apogee Stage speakers, they sound best not toed-in.

I don't have the necessary equipment to test what is actually happening, so I am simply hoping to find someone who might know the answer, or at least have a plausible theory about this.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have noticed a curious difference between Apogee and Magnepan speakers.

If one looks at the manual for the Apogee Stage speakers, which are a full range "ribbon" speaker (they are what Magnepan typically calls "quasi-ribbon"), one finds that toe-in is not recommended, and if it is done, it should be extremely slight:

http://www.apogeespeakers.com/manuals/stage_manual.pdf

In other words, Apogee recommended placing them basically parallel to the wall behind them in a normal room.


If one looks at the manual for a Magnepan speaker of similar design, one finds that they recommend that the speakers be toed-in. In other words, they recommend that the speakers not be placed parallel to the back wall, but aimed more at the listener. This is true of their new model MG 1.7, which is a pure "quasi-ribbon" speaker:

http://www.magnepan.com/content/binary/pdf_manuals/manual_17.pdf

The same recommendation is true of every other Magnepan speaker that I have checked.


Now, one might be tempted to think that one of them is just wrong in what they recommend, but I happen to own a pair of Apogee Stage speakers, and have a brother with a pair of Magnepan speakers, and I can say from personal experience that each manufacturer gives the right recommendation for their own product (as, of course, they should). So we now get to my question. Why is it that the one sounds better with significant toe-in, and the other sounds better without significant toe-in?

With most speakers that I have heard, they sound best aimed more or less at the listener, or in other words, toed-in, though obviously truly omnidirectional speakers would not be that way, and anything that has a very wide dispersion, one would normally think that toe-in would be generally irrelevant (as with an old pair of JBL L36 speakers I have, which subjectively appear to have an incredibly broad dispersion pattern). But in the case of the Apogee Stage speakers, they sound best not toed-in.

I don't have the necessary equipment to test what is actually happening, so I am simply hoping to find someone who might know the answer, or at least have a plausible theory about this.

The apogee crossover is first order. So the listening axis with the tweeter on the outside will be 15 degrees towards the listener. So when the speakers are parallel t the wall, they are effectively toed in 15 degrees.

The Maggies, are usually second order woofer and first high pass.

Which model does your brother have?

 

[Pyrrho]

The apogee crossover is first order. So the listening axis with the tweeter on the outside will be 15 degrees towards the listener. So when the speakers are parallel t the wall, they are effectively toed in 15 degrees.

The Maggies, are usually second order woofer and first high pass.

Which model does your brother have?

My brother has the MMG. According to this site, it has a first order crossover:

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/articles/speakers.html
(Note the more recent version, not the earlier version.)

Some of the Magnepan speakers are with second order crossovers, but that does not seem to affect the recommendation, nor have I ever listened to any Magnepan speakers where being toed-in did not seem desirable.

And according to this, the Apogee Stage does not have a first order crossover:

http://www.apogeespeakers.com/projectstech/stage_crossover.jpg

It shows a second order crossover, with optional additional components for the tweeter when the switch is in the "norm" position, that are "shorted out" in the "high" position.

Also, you mention the tweeter on the outside. Apogee recommends the tweeter on the inside. Magnepan seems to recommend that as well, but have in recent manuals been more "flexible" in that recommendation, probably due to many people claiming their speakers sound better with the tweeters on the outside.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have never been able to tell the difference between toe-in vs. no-toe-in.

The same thing with grill-on vs. grill-off.

Perhaps the difference is not as significant as some believe.

 

[TLS Guy]

My brother has the MMG. According to this site, it has a first order crossover:

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/articles/speakers.html
(Note the more recent version, not the earlier version.)

Some of the Magnepan speakers are with second order crossovers, but that does not seem to affect the recommendation, nor have I ever listened to any Magnepan speakers where being toed-in did not seem desirable.

And according to this, the Apogee Stage does not have a first order crossover:

http://www.apogeespeakers.com/projectstech/stage_crossover.jpg

It shows a second order crossover, with optional additional components for the tweeter when the switch is in the "norm" position, that are "shorted out" in the "high" position.

Also, you mention the tweeter on the outside. Apogee recommends the tweeter on the inside. Magnepan seems to recommend that as well, but have in recent manuals been more "flexible" in that recommendation, probably due to many people claiming their speakers sound better with the tweeters on the outside.

After 1999 production the MMG has a first order crossover.

Apogee stated that their crossover is a hybrid, but that circuit is second order, which would give a symmetrical lobing pattern, at least horizontally.

The MMG tweeter in or out would just amount to pretty much the same thing as altering the toe in. So putting the tweeter outside would tend to get you off axis and lower the HF intensity.

If there is a true difference it has to be due to lobing patterns.

 

[Pyrrho]

I have never been able to tell the difference between toe-in vs. no-toe-in.

The same thing with grill-on vs. grill-off.

Perhaps the difference is not as significant as some believe.

With toe-in vs. no toe-in, the difference that one hears (if there is an audible difference) typically is in the treble. Typically, very directional speakers have a treble drop-off when listened to off-axis, which is what one is doing with no toe-in. However, this is also affected by how far away one is from the speakers as well as with how far apart they are. If one places one's speakers and oneself at the corners of an imaginary equilateral triangle, very directional speakers will sound different toed-in vs. not toed-in, but if one moves further away from the speakers, one will be at less of an angle off-axis and it will make less difference, or if the speakers were closer together, then, too, one would be at less of an angle off-axis and it would make less difference.

Obviously, if the off-axis response is the same as the on-axis response, then toe-in or not will not matter. Or, if it is the treble only that is affected, if one is listening to a recording without treble it will not matter, nor would it matter if one could not hear the relevant treble frequencies.

In the case of some interesting speakers, like the Ohm Walsh 2, the speakers are already essentially toed-in, and in the case of the Walsh 2, aimed at about a 45˚ angle when the "front" of the speaker is parallel with the back wall. (Actually, it is the tweeter that is aimed, as the Walsh driver is inherently omnidirectional, though with it, they blocked its output in the back on the Walsh 2.)

As for grills on or off, I think that if they are competently made, there will be no audible difference, and I have never heard a difference on any speakers that I have owned.


Edited to add:

Thinking about all of the above also makes the situation more puzzling with the Apogee Stage speakers, because if one is close enough to form an equilateral triangle with them and the listener at the corners of the imaginary triangle, they sound best not toed-in or not toed-in much, but they sound best from further away; they are not near-field monitors at all. So one is at less of an angle off-axis in the ideal listening position, but toeing them in for closer listening is not good.

They are the strangest and most "magical" speakers I have ever spent much time with. I really would like it if someone measured what happens with these speakers, but obviously new professional reviews are not likely with a speaker that has not been made for over 10 years.

Anyway, I sure hope nothing happens to them, as I like them very much.