Pursiung the truth of the highest high-end

[xqx]

I started researching audio after buying what I though was good car audio equipment a few years ago. I knew the basics(Watts, true RMS/nominal, impendance/ohms, gain etc etc) and didn't need help with installation since I was good with electrical. I bought a 3000W(750-1000Wnominal) amp and the same rated Alpine SWX-1242D sub and an Alpine cda9885 receiver; didn't worry about the extras(crossovers, new speakers), just wanted the bass experience, I needed to feel the music. Then came the experience. I never knew that aiming for power and getting it for a good price was a mistake. The power was awesome but I never new what distortion was until now. Side note: I know there's a big difference between home and mobile audio, a car deals with a lot of outside noise in a small space. Anyway, I've been looking into the unheard of high end stuff like Luxman(home tubes and mobile), BEWITH(makes mobile only) and I just can't see the justification in the prices; I mean $2000 for a pair of 5cm tweeters for a car! Come on, like maybe half that price but a mobile system with their equipment would cost $10000+, now that's insanity; a person would have to me so absorbed to the point that they forget to weigh out and balance the cost. Music of all genres is everything to me and I've got a high off of amazing techno music on a decent but definitely lower end system; so how much better could a truly high end system be. I've experienced Bose home systems and they're really good but definitely not worth the price(they even hide the specs on their site so you know they aren't the best of the best). I used to think Denon was really high end but apparently it's only one of the highest of low-end(maybe they have a flagship though). I've researched many sound engineers' opinions and some say you should balance the cost out 'cause it's just music, not sex; others say many audiophiles don't know what they're talking about and that there's a lot more science involved. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of the reality of high end audio and need some advise before I end up spending $10000 that I don't have.

 

[BMXTRIX]

There is a difference between really really good, and high end... But, to the human ear, that is likely going to equate to less than 5% of an audible difference if we were to throw a percentage at it.

Sure, Meridian DSP-8000 speakers DO sound better than B&W Nautilus speakers, but not typically worth the extra $$$ that must be thrown into them.

This is just the same at every budget. You want to think about what you really want, and how much you are really willing to spend to get it. You do get more, as you spend more, but at every price level, there are better and worse products out there... There are also garbage products that do nothing at all to help the quality of your system in any way.

Companies like Denon are very good broad scope manufacturers. They don't make the cheapest of the cheap as Onkyo, or Sony might, but they also aren't really known as making the absolute best of the Best, such as a McIntosh, or Meridian (etc.). Denon is simply a very good mid-level company, which makes them very good for 90%+ of the market wanting good stuff.

Similarly, you have Pioneer, and Yamaha who fit that area as well.

Speakers run the gammut from garbage to great at most price points, so you have to find where your budget is, then do your homework.

Can you spend ten grand? Sure! Easily.

Is it worth it? Absolutely!

Do you have ten grand to spend?

That's the question that nobody can answer but you.

Do you need to spend ten grand to get GOOD audio?

Not at all! If you've done car audio, you know this is true... But, the less you have to spend, the more you typically want to do homework and know what you are buying. There's lots of very good product out there, but there's also a fair bit of crap which should be avoided as overpriced for the value you get.

 

[highfihoney]

BMX said it all,you wont get better advice than that anywhere.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I started researching audio after buying what I though was good car audio equipment a few years ago. I knew the basics(Watts, true RMS/nominal, impendance/ohms, gain etc etc) and didn't need help with installation since I was good with electrical. I bought a 3000W(750-1000Wnominal) amp and the same rated Alpine SWX-1242D sub and an Alpine cda9885 receiver; didn't worry about the extras(crossovers, new speakers), just wanted the bass experience, I needed to feel the music. Then came the experience. I never knew that aiming for power and getting it for a good price was a mistake. The power was awesome but I never new what distortion was until now. Side note: I know there's a big difference between home and mobile audio, a car deals with a lot of outside noise in a small space. Anyway, I've been looking into the unheard of high end stuff like Luxman(home tubes and mobile), BEWITH(makes mobile only) and I just can't see the justification in the prices; I mean $2000 for a pair of 5cm tweeters for a car! Come on, like maybe half that price but a mobile system with their equipment would cost $10000+, now that's insanity; a person would have to me so absorbed to the point that they forget to weigh out and balance the cost. Music of all genres is everything to me and I've got a high off of amazing techno music on a decent but definitely lower end system; so how much better could a truly high end system be. I've experienced Bose home systems and they're really good but definitely not worth the price(they even hide the specs on their site so you know they aren't the best of the best). I used to think Denon was really high end but apparently it's only one of the highest of low-end(maybe they have a flagship though). I've researched many sound engineers' opinions and some say you should balance the cost out 'cause it's just music, not sex; others say many audiophiles don't know what they're talking about and that there's a lot more science involved. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of the reality of high end audio and need some advise before I end up spending $10000 that I don't have.

You have to be careful with the highest of hi-end audio, unless you have money to burn and are concerned with status and looks.

High fidelity audio is not what the highest of hi-end is about.

Speakers and the room's acoustics is where it is at. After that, you need an amp to drive that speaker load, be it a receiver or separate amps.
You need a sound processor for digital audio of the various sources.
Again, in a receiver or stand alone.

You also need to know about human gullibility, bias and the limits of detection.

 

[xqx]

I appreciate all the input so far. I'm getting a much clearer view now. I feel more comfortable about not having to focus on getting the stuff out of my price range. It's easy to get carried away, all it takes is a swipe of a card

 

[The Dukester]

All good advice above. It comes down to how much you have to spend and what most figure the point of diminishing return is. A $1,000 set of speakers is 10 times as much as a $100 set, but you will get 10 times the speaker. Not the case with spending say, $3,500 vs. $35,000 on a pair. Is there a difference? You bet! But not worth the difference to most, unless as Mtry says, you have money to burn.

There are way too many factors to go into, such as resale value, features, being on the cutting edge of technology or not, bragging rights, etc, but I think you are getting the picture. Audio or home theater is just like everything else; you can get a lot for your money or throw a lot of money at it and end up with a bunch of stuff that doesn't work together.

My advice would be to set some goals, figure a budget that you can live with and not be in debt the next 20 yrs and then do some homework to find what fits your bill. The folks here can give you a lot of insight to help you on your journey once you do so!

 

[highfihoney]

I feel more comfortable about not having to focus on getting the stuff out of my price range. It's easy to get carried away, all it takes is a swipe of a card

If your going to get into HT or HI-FI the best thing you could ever do is to stay away from credit purchase's,save up cash & buy one peice at a time.

 

[Seth=L]

It really depends on your personal tastes and desires. For me, my system sounds fantastic. I buy lots of used gear to save myself some money, and a good example of that is my current system. I am using Boston Acoustics HD10s with a Teac CR-H220 CD/receiver. The speakers are very efficient and even loaded so the Teac's low wattage (25 watts per channel) is enough to drive my speakers to very high levels without audible clipping or compression. While the speakers cost $440 new for the pair and the Teac was likely around $300-$400 (not worth it at that price IMO) I have spent less than $200 on the combonation. I bought the speakers in mintish condition from a pawn broker for $70+tax and the CD/receiver for about the same as a refurbished model from eBay.

No new stereo rig (aside from nearfield stereo monitors possibly) would be able to compete with my current system. And before you ask, I have had much newer, and much more powerful equipment in the past, all the way up to bi-amped speakers with a power amplifier and a preamp. To be perfectly honest, having all that doesn't seem to have much advantage over what I have now as a high fidilety playback system.

I am not saying you should buy used, but SQ is in the eye of the beholder, as well as the value. Something is only worth what you are willing to pay for it.

 

[TLS Guy]

Science and art versus superstition

Unfortunately the high end has got hijacked by a bunch of people who have a personality disorder, that leads them to follow unreasonable and ridiculous superstitions

Read this book and you will find out what the pursuit of high fidelity reproduction and audio excellence is all about.

http://www.audioxpress.com/bksprods/products/bkia1.htm

Pursuing the "Closest approach to the original sound" is what it is all about, and should continue to motivate us all.

 

[InTheIndustry]

10/10

I agree with all of you guys. Although we all have our seperate ideas as to where the "value" of a speaker system starts and stops it all comes down to one thing for me.

The classic 10/10 rule. Only you can answer where & when the rule takes effect and I think it's fun to argue that (very personal) point. The rule says this: You have to spend 10x as much to get a 10% difference.

 

[Haoleb]

I've experienced Bose home systems and they're really good but definitely not worth the price(they even hide the specs on their site so you know they aren't the best of the best).

Well your off to a good start. I have to tell you, I installed one of those lifestyle systems today and really, without a doubt its the biggest peice of crap I have ever worked with. This was the one that costs 2 grand. For that price you get 5 crappy little speakers, A "reciever" that seems to have been designed by some homosexual purse designer which has one video input and one video output for its built in dvd player. Well actually scratch that it has both composite and Svideo. Component? No. The speakers are hooked up with glorious wires that are probably 50' each with the cheapest RCA plugs on the end you have ever seen. Then you get a big powerblock power supply for the "reciever" there are just as many wires you need to hook up to make the damn thing work as a regular reciever and dvd player. I thought it was only about a grand but when i looked it up i really was blown away how they can sell something of such low quality for that price. And im not joking. Seriously. Its sad.

Theres really a reason why no other manufacturers have tiny speakers that swivel around, and a box that cant even be called a subwoofer with all the amplification built in, and an all in one reciever purse thing that feels cheap all around and doesnt even have a set of component video outputs or video switching.

I especially liked the AdaptIQ thing it had, I didnt use it but from what I can tell its like a stereo SPL meter you wear on your head like headphones. I can only imagine the kind of errors this would create in doing any calibrations, It may seem like a good idea if you are always sitting in that exact spot when you watch a movie but other than that its stupid.

 

[jagxtype]

Well your off to a good start. I have to tell you, I installed one of those lifestyle systems today and really, without a doubt its the biggest peice of crap I have ever worked with. This was the one that costs 2 grand. For that price you get 5 crappy little speakers, A "reciever" that seems to have been designed by some homosexual purse designer which has one video input and one video output for its built in dvd player. Well actually scratch that it has both composite and Svideo. Component? No. The speakers are hooked up with glorious wires that are probably 50' each with the cheapest RCA plugs on the end you have ever seen. Then you get a big powerblock power supply for the "reciever" there are just as many wires you need to hook up to make the damn thing work as a regular reciever and dvd player. I thought it was only about a grand but when i looked it up i really was blown away how they can sell something of such low quality for that price. And im not joking. Seriously. Its sad.

Theres really a reason why no other manufacturers have tiny speakers that swivel around, and a box that cant even be called a subwoofer with all the amplification built in, and an all in one reciever purse thing that feels cheap all around and doesnt even have a set of component video outputs or video switching.

I especially liked the AdaptIQ thing it had, I didnt use it but from what I can tell its like a stereo SPL meter you wear on your head like headphones. I can only imagine the kind of errors this would create in doing any calibrations, It may seem like a good idea if you are always sitting in that exact spot when you watch a movie but other than that its stupid.

The propaganda that surround BOSE is obviously a following of people that know no better. One listen of a well thought-out system in the price range of those things and the attitude would likely change rather quickly.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I am a total unbeliever in "high-end". I think that with smart shopping, a person can assemble a system for a moderate price that is as good as most ears can appreciate. My HT and stereo were $2300 and $1600 MSRP, respectively (I paid quite a bit less), and both sound awesome to me.

 

[stratman]

Well your off to a good start. I have to tell you, I installed one of those lifestyle systems today and really, without a doubt its the biggest peice of crap I have ever worked with. This was the one that costs 2 grand. For that price you get 5 crappy little speakers, A "reciever" that seems to have been designed by some homosexual purse designer which has one video input and one video output for its built in dvd player. Well actually scratch that it has both composite and Svideo. Component? No. The speakers are hooked up with glorious wires that are probably 50' each with the cheapest RCA plugs on the end you have ever seen. Then you get a big powerblock power supply for the "reciever" there are just as many wires you need to hook up to make the damn thing work as a regular reciever and dvd player. I thought it was only about a grand but when i looked it up i really was blown away how they can sell something of such low quality for that price. And im not joking. Seriously. Its sad.

Theres really a reason why no other manufacturers have tiny speakers that swivel around, and a box that cant even be called a subwoofer with all the amplification built in, and an all in one reciever purse thing that feels cheap all around and doesnt even have a set of component video outputs or video switching.

I especially liked the AdaptIQ thing it had, I didnt use it but from what I can tell its like a stereo SPL meter you wear on your head like headphones. I can only imagine the kind of errors this would create in doing any calibrations, It may seem like a good idea if you are always sitting in that exact spot when you watch a movie but other than that its stupid.

Try to convince a Bosephile differently! Bose marketing is ingenius, they target the audio-inept.

 

[highfihoney]

Try to convince a Bosephile differently! Bose marketing is ingenius, they target the audio-inept.

Got into a discussion about Bose yesterday with one of the head honcho's of the Michigan Gaming Commission at one of the casino's my company is building,he said i was crazy to spend the kinda cash i do on audio gear because his Bose sytem was better & alot cheaper.

That was a conversation where i bit my tongue for the good of the company.

 

[jaxvon]

Got into a discussion about Bose yesterday with one of the head honcho's of the Michigan Gaming Commission at one of the casino's my company is building,he said i was crazy to spend the kinda cash i do on audio gear because his Bose sytem was better & alot cheaper.

That was a conversation where i bit my tongue for the good of the company.

You should have invited him over to hear a real stereo. He'd probably cry when he got home and listened to his cubes.

 

[stratman]

Yeah that's a good idea, you'll convert the Bosephile to a true audiophile!

 

[annunaki]

Try to convince a Bosephile differently! Bose marketing is ingenius, they target the audio-inept.

That is exactly true. There is a reason you do not see Bose in a specialty shops. They can't ethically sell it to a person knowing how big of a ripoff it really is. That is why you see them in most big-box retailers. Bose wants the "blind to lead the blind" so to speak.

Many people are so Bose brainwashed they will not even listen to anything else because they do not want to be proven wrong. Ignorance is bliss, and many Bosephiles are loaded with it.

 

[3db]

Yeah that's a good idea, you'll convert the Bosephile to a true audiophile!

Naaa ahhhhhh!!! Bose is tops!!

 

[stratman]

Naaa ahhhhhh!!! Bose is tops!!

Wiiiiiiilmaaaaa Get my club!