PSB Woofers

[BeatsWork]

I am in the process of acquiring a pair of Imagine Bs. I plan to wall mount them in a medium sized room, and am trying to decide on a complimenting subwoofer. In a couple years, the system will be transported to a larger room where I might expand to a surround system, or maintain the stereo setup and add another amplifier to power a set of towers.

Trying to stick with PSB, I have (temporarily?) narrowed my choices down to the Subseries 5i (10" cone, 150Wcontinuous/225Wdynamic) and the Subsonic 8 (2x-10" opposed cones, 275Wcontinuous/400Wdynamic). I feel like the 5i would be plenty adequate for my first scenario, but am curious to hear an opinion on the Subsonic 8 for use in a smaller-sized room, and just some general comparative views between the two options. My local PSB dealers have none of the PSB woofers in shop to try out!

I found a dealer with a blemished Subsonic 8 that is only a couple hundred dollars more than the Subseries 5i, which makes the upgrade enticing, but I'm a bit nervous buying a discontinued product. Anyone have experience with PSB woofers?

 

[its phillip]

I wouldn't bother sticking with the same brand of subwoofer. What is your budget?

 

[BeatsWork]

Well, I was looking at that 5i for $350, and the 8 for $600. I consider that $600 to be the cap.

Edit: I should maintain that I will mostly be using this setup for music. At times, some heavily low-end music..

 

[3db]

Although PSB subs are good subs, one can find better performance for the price of a PSB sub in HSU, Outlaw and SVS. Outlaw has a sale on their subs that seriiusly kicks teh subs from PSB you have mentioned in the proverbial butt.


http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfmEX.html

I have the older subsonic 5 and its great for any music I throw at it. Its great for HT but just doesn't go down as deep as I would like. This outlaw sub definately wipes the floor with the PSB.

 

[GranteedEV]

Well, I was looking at that 5i for $350, and the 8 for $600. I consider that $600 to be the cap.

Edit: I should maintain that I will mostly be using this setup for music. At times, some heavily low-end music..

There is rarely an advantage to using the matching "brand" of subwoofer. With a 600 dollar budget, I would be looking at Rythmik FV12 perhaps.

 

[its phillip]

Although PSB subs are good subs, one can find better performance for the price of a PSB sub in HSU, Outlaw and SVS. Outlaw has a sale on their subs that seriiusly kicks teh subs from PSB you have mentioned in the proverbial butt.


http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfmEX.html

I have the older subsonic 5 and its great for any music I throw at it. Its great for HT but just doesn't go down as deep as I would like. This outlaw sub definately wipes the floor with the PSB.

The sale ended a little over a week ago

I'd look at the ED A3-300 at the limit of your budget (and several other cheaper ED models), Rythmik FV12 (depending on where you live, shipping will push it over budget), Emotiva Ultra 12, and various HSU and Outlaw Audio models.

 

[annunaki]

PSB subs are pretty well known for response linearity. They build a decent product. Can you get more output from some of the ID brands, yes.

For $600.00 it is a tough call. For primarily music and a smattering of movies I would highly consider the Dayton RS1200K kit. It is even on sale right now for a great price of $479!

 

[jinjuku]

The only way I would go with the PSB subs is the fact I can get dealer pricing.

 

[BeatsWork]

Awesome - thanks for all these quick responses! Buying a sub online is a hard thing to do...

What made me consider a PSB sub (other than the supreme quality of the bookshelfs) was that the company remains more musically directed despite the Home Theater boom. As annunaki mentioned, they're known for flat, true response on all of their models. This appealed to me, a 95% music guy. As my living quarters won't be large at all over the next couple years, I'm not necessarily concerned about bone-shaking output. Output greater than 300 Watts and low-end specs of reaching <20Hz are impressive, but do these really sound clean down there? If I can get down to 30Hz without distortion, and flow musically with the bookshelfs, I'll be pleased.

I was intrigued by that Subsonic 8 because it had 2 cones opposed against each other that cancel out enclosure vibrations, and because it was 50% off retail. I found out it was sold today, so to hell with it anyway.

Outlaw: The LFM-1EX is a bit too big for me. The LFM-1Plus has become a contender.

Rhythmik FV12: I had not heard of this brand, and I was slightly turned off by the description. It says: "Looking for an affordable home theater sub that is also tight and musical?" I'm sure the thing bumps hard and loud, but how tight is it really? It's not off the list, but it's at the bottom.

Emotiva Ultra 12: Though it's got a description like the FV12, I liked the looks of this sub at first glance. Again, I'm unfamiliar with the brand, but so it goes. This seems to be the most compact of them all, at only 14.5"x14.5"x15.25". What is there to be said about non-ported woofers?

A3-300: This thing looks nice (must be nice enough to be backordered)! My only concern is where a couple reviewers mention that the thing sounded 'awful' through their stereo receivers, but great through their surround receivers. I will be sending signal from an NAD 326BEE stereo integrated amplifier, so those reviews were intimidating.

SVS: I found none available within my price range..they seem nice though.

HSU: Each model in my spectrum was out of stock. I got no answer this afternoon when I called them to chat.

Any more words of advice and/or suggestions will be much appreciated!

 

[BeatsWork]

The only way I would go with the PSB subs is the fact I can get dealer pricing.

How low does that get ya? I figured a $200 discount off of the 5i (retail $549) was pretty decent, and the $600 discount off of the 8 was almost suspect.

 

[GranteedEV]

Rhythmik FV12: I had not heard of this brand, and I was slightly turned off by the description. It says: "Looking for an affordable home theater sub that is also tight and musical?" I'm sure the thing bumps hard and loud, but how tight is it really? It's not off the list, but it's at the bottom.

Rythmik subs are widely known for being some of the tightest and most musical subs out there.

Don't be confused by words. Rythmik is about as musical as it gets. I would have read the description as "subs at this price point aren't normally as tight and musical, while still having decent output for HT, but this one is"

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/technology.html

The reason they make the distinction that this an HT sub is because it is a vented sub, and for pure music listening they do recommend sealed subs like their F12 and F15. Both the PSB subs, and the Outlaw sub, that you are looking at, also happen to be vented subs, so by the rythmik description both would be described as HT subs. Only sealed subs fit rythmik's description of audiophile subs, and they all need to use very expensive high excursion drivers so they are more expensive. While the FV12 retails for $550 the F12 is $800.

I can definitely tell you the Rythmik is not some boom and slop high output sub. It's about as accurate as can be for a 12" vented sub. It has many tuning options so that you can decide which tradeoff of output vs tightness works best in your room and to your ears.

 

[3db]

PSB subs are pretty well known for response linearity. They build a decent product. Can you get more output from some of the ID brands, yes.

For $600.00 it is a tough call. For primarily music and a smattering of movies I would highly consider the Dayton RS1200K kit. It is even on sale right now for a great price of $479!

I forgot about their linearity since I"ve been on a quest for subs that will dig deeper. PSB subs are generally one of the most linear subs out their. They may not dig as deep but their frequency curves are among the flattest I've seen. This makes integrating them into a room and speakers much easier.

 

[annunaki]

Awesome - thanks for all these quick responses! Buying a sub online is a hard thing to do...

What made me consider a PSB sub (other than the supreme quality of the bookshelfs) was that the company remains more musically directed despite the Home Theater boom. As annunaki mentioned, they're known for flat, true response on all of their models. This appealed to me, a 95% music guy. As my living quarters won't be large at all over the next couple years, I'm not necessarily concerned about bone-shaking output. Output greater than 300 Watts and low-end specs of reaching <20Hz are impressive, but do these really sound clean down there? If I can get down to 30Hz without distortion, and flow musically with the bookshelfs, I'll be pleased.

I was intrigued by that Subsonic 8 because it had 2 cones opposed against each other that cancel out enclosure vibrations, and because it was 50% off retail. I found out it was sold today, so to hell with it anyway.

Outlaw: The LFM-1EX is a bit too big for me. The LFM-1Plus has become a contender.

Rhythmik FV12: I had not heard of this brand, and I was slightly turned off by the description. It says: "Looking for an affordable home theater sub that is also tight and musical?" I'm sure the thing bumps hard and loud, but how tight is it really? It's not off the list, but it's at the bottom.

Emotiva Ultra 12: Though it's got a description like the FV12, I liked the looks of this sub at first glance. Again, I'm unfamiliar with the brand, but so it goes. This seems to be the most compact of them all, at only 14.5"x14.5"x15.25". What is there to be said about non-ported woofers?

A3-300: This thing looks nice (must be nice enough to be backordered)! My only concern is where a couple reviewers mention that the thing sounded 'awful' through their stereo receivers, but great through their surround receivers. I will be sending signal from an NAD 326BEE stereo integrated amplifier, so those reviews were intimidating.

SVS: I found none available within my price range..they seem nice though.

HSU: Each model in my spectrum was out of stock. I got no answer this afternoon when I called them to chat.

Any more words of advice and/or suggestions will be much appreciated!

No love for the Dayton kit I linked to???



I would also consider Rythmik from the many reviews I have seen and read regarding their subs.

If it were my money, with a primarily music oriented system and I had to go with a commercially available sub or ready to go kit, the Dayton kit, Rythmik, and even the PSB may be on my list.

 

[BeatsWork]

I've (......temporarily?), again, narrowed my new choices down. I think I'm starting to head in the right direction.

I've found a couple Velodyne Minivee 8s for <$400, a Minivee 10 for $500, and am starting to consider breaking the bank and heading for the Optimum 10 for ~$900 and calling it a day (rather, many years). Since I won't be using a modern AV receiver that corrects the EQ on the sub, I like the fact that the optimum includes a mic and a button-push system. Not large, semi-notoriously musical, and +/- 3db down to 21hz at 1000Watt RMS...someone talk me out of it?!

 

[BeatsWork]

Annunaki -- hahaha. To be honest, I've never fully considered getting a kit. I could make a dozen excuses why, but at this point I'm just eager for some professionally engineered, manufactured, and assembled bass.

I had the Rhythmik F12 on the list, but at the $799 price point, the Velodyne Optimum 10 at $900 entered the game; especially with it's built-in EQ correction. Time sure tweaks a budget...

 

[GranteedEV]

I. think velodyne subs are not a supreme value. EQ should not be a selling point either as it won't do much for more than ome seat and may not help your seat either if the problem is deep and wide enough. At the $8-900 price point i would be looking at dual subs.

 

[BeatsWork]

GranteedEV- I'm glad you said that. I'll often be the sole listener, and was thinking the EQ was going to make a substantial difference.

I'm pretty impressed by the Minivee 10's specs (23hz, 1000rms), and go figure, it's the sub that I told them to disconnect when I was doing a demo for the Imagine Bs. I was shocked at the noise coming out of the tiny cabinet before they did. As I said, I found one for $500, and will be able to go pick it up..hooray!

I appreciate all the suggestions. I'm glad I didn't stick with the PSB woofer. When I called, I was told they're doing away with the 5i and updating their low-budgets over the next year. Maybe I can add one another day for double-woofer...

 

[GranteedEV]

GranteedEV- I'm glad you said that. I'll often be the sole listener, and was thinking the EQ was going to make a substantial difference.

In order of priority it would go

placement of sub in order to have the least wide peaks and valleys as possible at listening position.
placement of seating position in room
bass traps to improve frequency response
placement of second sub to fill in the holes left by the first sub
EQ to average out response.
placement of third sub to fill in holes left by the first/second subs. Often the best placement for this sub is near the ceiling so a larger sub is unnecessary.

If you want EQ, consider a MiniDSP, Behringer DCX2496, or SVS Audyssey instead

I'm pretty impressed by the Minivee 10's specs (23hz, 1000rms), and go figure, it's the sub that I told them to disconnect when I was doing a demo for the Imagine Bs. I was shocked at the noise coming out of the tiny cabinet before they did. As I said, I found one for $500, and will be able to go pick it up..hooray!

those specs forget to mention two things

1)23hz at what SPL? 80db? As soon as the output rises, the sub will scale back output at lower frequencies.

2)is 1000 watts a sign that the sub has a lot of output, or that it isn't very efficient and needs power just to perform at average levels?

And your audition sounds like the typical bad hi fi shop setup. A sub should never be drawing attention to itself - you realistically should barely be able to tell it's there. I'd be pretty weary if I were you.. If the difference between sub off and sub on was as drastic as it sounds, i think the hi fi shop had the sub levels a good 10+db high. That is far from "musical"

 

[BeatsWork]

Thanks for that list.

1. I'm unable to find that spec for the 10. What can you help me read out of this for the 8?

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/velodyne-minivee/MiniVeeSPLVsFreq.JPG/image_view_fullscreen

2. I read that Velodyne was the 'innovator' in using excessive power and a heavy magnet to make up for small cabinet design. Nearly all of the subs that have been mentioned in this thread have a small cabinet. Seems like the company actually invests in engineering?


I mean, I could tell that there was a sub on...the bookshelfs have a cutoff at 52hz. I wasn't shopping for subs; I told them to turn it off. It was probably leveled wrong, it wouldn't surprise me. I didn't buy anything from there. Why need I be 'pretty weary'? To be honest, I got weary when I read a few recommendations for brands that I'd never heard of, and saw corresponding ads on the sides of the page..I'm over that though.

Again, thanks for the help~

 

[GranteedEV]

I mean, I could tell that there was a sub on...the bookshelfs have a cutoff at 52hz. I wasn't shopping for subs; I told them to turn it off. It was probably leveled wrong, it wouldn't surprise me. I didn't buy anything from there. Why need I be 'pretty weary'?

Well I mean, on one hand you wanted an accurate setup and on the other hand you were 'impressed' by what sounded like a bad dealer setup.

Setup properly, the difference between sub and no sub should not be night and day with most content. 52hz is a low frequency and there isn't too much content below it. It can improve perceived depth to add a sub but a sub shouldn't add punch etc.