Problems With Liberal Democracy

jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Have you considered the possibility that voter turnout for this election might have some bearing on the results, overcoming efforts to suppress votes?
You have to show me data of the # of suppressed votes then.

I still have yet to see anyone answer if the ID requirement to: Bank, Fly, Rent, A/T/F purchase, Tattoo is suppressive by intentional design. Again I'll point out Alito's 2004 opinion mentioning the NATIONAL BOARD OF ELECTIONS and voter ID requirements.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
You have to show me data of the # of suppressed votes then.

I still have yet to see anyone answer if the ID requirement to: Bank, Fly, Rent, A/T/F purchase, Tattoo is suppressive by intentional design. Again I'll point out Alito's 2004 opinion mentioning the NATIONAL BOARD OF ELECTIONS and voter ID requirements.
I could have sworn I said I was done with the ID discussion...

Each of the activities you mentioned have specific identification requirements - some of them a combination of multiple types. This can apply to voting, as well.

The system could look like this:
You could produce one of the approved forms of ID to indicate eligibility to vote.

Or, if you don't have an approved ID, how about a vouching mechanism, where a person who knows you, can vouch for your eligibility to vote. This is practiced in other countries, where it works fine, without elections being stolen.

That's it. I won't be commenting on, or responding to other questions concerning, voter ID and or vote suppression. The topic has been beaten into oblivion and further back and forth is unlikely to be productive.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
LOL people need to show their papers! We at the drumphy claim of showing your id at the supermarket nonsense yet? Prove your papers! You are not a person without your papers! Let's make it difficult and costly to get and keep your papers!
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
LOL people need to show their papers! We at the drumphy claim of showing your id at the supermarket nonsense yet? Prove your papers! You are not a person without your papers! Let's make it difficult and costly to get and keep your papers!
Your response is absurd. A DL is good for 4 years, a passport is good for 10. In KY a license is $22.

I have my child's birth certificate and ss card. When either a DL or State ID is needed we'll be done in about 30 minutes.

How lazy do you have to be. SMH.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I could have sworn I said I was done with the ID discussion...

Each of the activities you mentioned have specific identification requirements - some of them a combination of multiple types. This can apply to voting, as well.

The system could look like this:
You could produce one of the approved forms of ID to indicate eligibility to vote.

Or, if you don't have an approved ID, how about a vouching mechanism, where a person who knows you, can vouch for your eligibility to vote. This is practiced in other countries, where it works fine, without elections being stolen.

That's it. I won't be commenting on, or responding to other questions concerning, voter ID and or vote suppression. The topic has been beaten into oblivion and further back and forth is unlikely to be productive.
I'll take this as an answer to a simple question of is id requirements for all these x/y/z activities systemically suppressive against certain classes of people as a no.

Sad that for all the posturing as an intellectual, simple questions can't be directly addressed.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Your response is absurd. A DL is good for 4 years, a passport is good for 10. In KY a license is $22.

I have my child's birth certificate and ss card. When either a DL or State ID is needed we'll be done in about 30 minutes.

How lazy do you have to be. SMH.
Just saying the whole diatribe on the subject of ID is a bit ridiculous. You need ID for some things, sure. DL terms vary as well as costs from state to state, then there's the special flying version. Passports are great as long as you actually travel internationally. I'm still missing your point in general in your rant, tho.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Hey, you're the one that can't even answer a single, simple, question.

I'll let our respective posts speak for ourselves;)
Okay, repeat this simple question....and it's relevance in general.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Okay, repeat this simple question....and it's relevance in general.
The logic is this: If ID required to vote = systemic suppression of certain classes of people

Is it also the same for: Air travel? Car rental? Banking? A/T/F purchases, Apply for food stamps, Apply for welfare, Apply for Medicare/Medicaid, Apply for unemployment, Adopt a pet, get married, Donate blood, get a fishing/hunting license, Purchase certain over the counter cold medications.

Is Hertz, is Hilton Hotels, is American Airlines, is Kroger, CVS, Walgreens, The American Humane Society, all guilty and actively participating in someones oppression?

I effing can't believe I'm having to ask for a simple answer and explain the logic behind the ask. You should have been able to figure it out for yourself.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
The logic is this: If ID required to vote = systemic suppression of certain classes of people

Is it also the same for: Air travel? Car rental? Banking? A/T/F purchases, Apply for food stamps, Apply for welfare, Apply for Medicare/Medicaid, Apply for unemployment, Adopt a pet, get married, Donate blood, get a fishing/hunting license, Purchase certain over the counter cold medications.

Is Hertz, is Hilton Hotels, is American Airlines, is Kroger, CVS, Walgreens, The American Humane Society, all guilty and actively participating in someones oppression?

I effing can't believe I'm having to ask for a simple answer and explain the logic behind the ask. You should have been able to figure it out for yourself.
Start with the first line....whose position is that particularly?
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Start with the first line....whose position is that particularly?
This is your post is it not?

"LOL people need to show their papers! We at the drumphy claim of showing your id at the supermarket nonsense yet? Prove your papers! You are not a person without your papers! Let's make it difficult and costly to get and keep your papers! "
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
Not really, you have some obscure stuff you get riled up about.
The dude does not believe that voter suppression exists, evidence to the contrary.

Then there is the argument that the requirement of voter-id to stop election fraud, but the case is that there is very, very little election fraud in USA.

So it comes back to what problem some of these voter ID requirements in some states is supposed to solve and voter suppression.

Other democratic countries manages to require voter ID without going into voter suppression by predominantly one party. Where I live you can have a person vouch for you when voting but that person, of course, has to show a voter ID. Other countries has similar system of vouching for someone.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Ninja
In person or mail-in you need some type of ID or photocopied ID present or mailed in or on record to match. Well mail-in you need some type of match to permanent citizenship with and address. Yeah I'm finally starting to see the problems there. Plus they need to hurry up the process.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I'll take this as an answer to a simple question of is id requirements for all these x/y/z activities systemically suppressive against certain classes of people as a no.

Sad that for all the posturing as an intellectual, simple questions can't be directly addressed.
Can't let it go gracefully, eh?

You've taken the position that voter ID is not difficult to obtain and that ID requirements are not discriminatory. Then, you post specious arguments to support your stance, such as that silly FOX bit.

You aren't getting the answer you want to your question, which you equate with not getting an answer. The fact is, the IDs you refer to can be difficult for some people to obtain, as well.

Do you think everybody has a bank account?
Why So Many Americans Don’t Have Bank Accounts | TIME.com

Everyone flies, drives, carries a concealed firearm? What kind of bubble do you live in?

Are the millions of people who say they find it difficult/impossible to get an ID for voting, all liars? If you want to ignore all the evidence to the contrary, that's on you.
Oppose Voter ID Legislation - Fact Sheet | American Civil Liberties Union (aclu.org)
The Challenge of Obtaining Voter Identification | Brennan Center for Justice
Voter ID laws: Why do minorities lack ID to show at the polls? (slate.com)

It is beyond question that many people can't vote, due to ID requirements. That is de facto voter suppression. If all legislatures were honest brokers and actually wanted every eligible voter to exercise their right to vote, they would make every effort to facilitate it and still be able to protect election integrity. But that isn't what they do, is it? They do things like making a concealed firearms permit acceptable for voting, but not a student ID.
Texas Voter ID Allows Handgun Licenses But Not Student IDs | The New Republic

Since voter fraud is very rare, such ID requirements tantamount to killing a fly with a cannon.
Explainer: Despite Trump claims, voter fraud is extremely rare. Here is how U.S. states keep it that way | Reuters

It's quite clear that these ID requirements constitute voter suppression - deliberate, or not. Does/can this swing an election result? In theory, in a very close race, why not? In practice, who knows? Regardless, in denies some people their franchise - and that's wrong.

ID to Vote – Elections Canada
Guess what - there are people in Canada who have difficulty getting ID, too. So, if you don't have ID:
You can still vote if you declare your identity and address in writing and have someone who knows you and who is assigned to your polling station vouch for you.

The voucher must be able to prove their identity and address. A person can vouch for only one person (except in long-term care institutions).
I referred to vouching before, but you conveniently ignored that.

I make no claims to being an intellectual, but I at least try to back up my arguments. And, I'm tired of doing your homework for you.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I read the article:

The reasons listed 1. Services aren’t always available 2. People don’t have enough time or money 3. Some people don’t trust banks 4. Potential customers lack financial literacy

The reason I didn't see listed: Systemic suppression of certain classes of people.

We'll have to agree to disagree.
You stated that everyone needs ID to bank. I answered that a lot of people don't even have bank accounts. And - I shouldn't have to spell this out - the suppression is the inability to vote, not the inability to have a bank account.

And yes, we'll have to agree to disagree.
 

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