Problems With Liberal Democracy

GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
As I told Trell- if you haven't lived here, don't tell my I'm wrong. The people in Nova Scotia or anywhere, really, are not the same as people here.

I'm not saying that all public schools are bad- I went to them until college but at that time, we weren't barraged by teachers telling us what to think, as they do here. Yes, they do- you may not want to believe it, but they do. However, WHERE the schools are makes a difference. Unfortunately, the "you need to know 'this' " occurs n both extremes, so it's not a matter of only one side doing it.

Schools are supposed to teach how to think critically, not what to think but if you were to come here and talk to people below the age of 30, you would be amazed by what they don't know- you know more about this country than they do. For that matter, many people outside of the US know more and that's a problem because they don't have the ability to think in terms of 'how will this help the country?", rather than "What's in it, for me?". Kids aren't very interested in history, so rather than grade them low, they dumb it down so they'll pass. Why would a Math class need to mention CRT? For that matter and WRT secondary ed, why would a college history professor need to force her views about anything on the students?

The link shows part of the problem and it affects all of us in this area, in many ways. If they don't learn the material by the end of high school, and the Math/Reading proficiency ratings show they aren't, they'll never be able to land a job that pays well unless they have some special skill that doesn't require academic excellence. Unless they're lucky and find a job where employees are taught what is needed, outside of the work skills.


There's nothing easy about this but IMO, people need to stop using hot buttons to get what they want, on all areas of the political spectrum. Class warfare needs to stop and the main targets of opportunity are the 'rich', as Pelosi calls them. Well, she IS one of the 'rich', but nobody wants to talk about the people whose names are on hospitals, schools, public programs and in other aspects of society where the ones who gave large parts of their wealth did it do help people. Sure, they might be able to see their names on these, but only if they make the endowment while they're alive and coherent. Some/many do it as a bequeathment, sometimes because they had nobody else to leave it to but it doesn't happen without serious thought.

I hate seeing people who are stuck in their position in life without a decent way out. Locally, I blame the city government and politics in general, in Milwaukee. It has been contentious my whole life and I'm 65- my parents built their house in a suburb (not a ritzy one, either) so they didn't have to deal with the problems, but we lived only 3 blocks away, so the crime has always intruded into the area. The public schools in this area (I moved back, after 16 years in the city) are definitely better and the $/student is higher because it's a very small district, but MKE spends more/student than all but a few schools in large cities, according to the link. The problem with the MPS budget is the fact that so much is spent on pensions, which WOULD have been less costly if the pension program had been managed more sensibly.


I don't think the MKE schools produce thoughtless robots, but the end results aren't good- the kids need to be interested, or they'll never succeed and when the news crew and meetings have kids saying "There's nothing for me, there", the school board needs to pay attention. The MKE school board has had infighting and problems with members cooperating for a long time- that needs to change.

Nobody benefits when schools fail. Property tax pays for most of the cost and, while it's expensive in Wisconsin, most of us who don't have kids pay it willingly because it's absolutely necessary.
As I told Trell- if you haven't lived here, don't tell my I'm wrong. The people in Nova Scotia or anywhere, really, are not the same as people here.

I'm not saying that all public schools are bad- I went to them until college but at that time, we weren't barraged by teachers telling us what to think, as they do here. Yes, they do- you may not want to believe it, but they do. However, WHERE the schools are makes a difference. Unfortunately, the "you need to know 'this' " occurs n both extremes, so it's not a matter of only one side doing it.

Schools are supposed to teach how to think critically, not what to think but if you were to come here and talk to people below the age of 30, you would be amazed by what they don't know- you know more about this country than they do. For that matter, many people outside of the US know more and that's a problem because they don't have the ability to think in terms of 'how will this help the country?", rather than "What's in it, for me?". Kids aren't very interested in history, so rather than grade them low, they dumb it down so they'll pass. Why would a Math class need to mention CRT? For that matter and WRT secondary ed, why would a college history professor need to force her views about anything on the students?

The link shows part of the problem and it affects all of us in this area, in many ways. If they don't learn the material by the end of high school, and the Math/Reading proficiency ratings show they aren't, they'll never be able to land a job that pays well unless they have some special skill that doesn't require academic excellence. Unless they're lucky and find a job where employees are taught what is needed, outside of the work skills.


There's nothing easy about this but IMO, people need to stop using hot buttons to get what they want, on all areas of the political spectrum. Class warfare needs to stop and the main targets of opportunity are the 'rich', as Pelosi calls them. Well, she IS one of the 'rich', but nobody wants to talk about the people whose names are on hospitals, schools, public programs and in other aspects of society where the ones who gave large parts of their wealth did it do help people. Sure, they might be able to see their names on these, but only if they make the endowment while they're alive and coherent. Some/many do it as a bequeathment, sometimes because they had nobody else to leave it to but it doesn't happen without serious thought.

I hate seeing people who are stuck in their position in life without a decent way out. Locally, I blame the city government and politics in general, in Milwaukee. It has been contentious my whole life and I'm 65- my parents built their house in a suburb (not a ritzy one, either) so they didn't have to deal with the problems, but we lived only 3 blocks away, so the crime has always intruded into the area. The public schools in this area (I moved back, after 16 years in the city) are definitely better and the $/student is higher because it's a very small district, but MKE spends more/student than all but a few schools in large cities, according to the link. The problem with the MPS budget is the fact that so much is spent on pensions, which WOULD have been less costly if the pension program had been managed more sensibly.


I don't think the MKE schools produce thoughtless robots, but the end results aren't good- the kids need to be interested, or they'll never succeed and when the news crew and meetings have kids saying "There's nothing for me, there", the school board needs to pay attention. The MKE school board has had infighting and problems with members cooperating for a long time- that needs to change.

Nobody benefits when schools fail. Property tax pays for most of the cost and, while it's expensive in Wisconsin, most of us who don't have kids pay it willingly because it's absolutely necessary.
OK, if your public schools are crap, I guess they all need to be privatized. I will stand by my support for public education here.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
You really don't understand- reading about it and watching the news gives the perspective of those people- you need to experience it to know.
So all your posts about what is wrong in USA is based upon your personal experience? ;)

You should try do some reading yourself, assuming it’s quality.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
OK, if your public schools are crap, I guess they all need to be privatized. I will stand by my support for public education here.
We're a country that is adamant that public education be as bad as possible. It sucks.

Having said that, my kids' school is pretty great, but elementary schools are usually pretty good. It's the high schools here that are the issue. Mine was so bad I'm not sure how I learned anything.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
OK, if your public schools are crap, I guess they all need to be privatized. I will stand by my support for public education here.
My wife of 47 years is a retired school teacher that taught in the public sector for 30 years both in the State of NY and her last twelve years here in Pa. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a 'good' public school education. Granted demographics have a lot to do with good vs bad districts. Along with that, pathetic parenting of the 'Boomer Generation' has added considerable negativity to many a students success. Far too many parents look at school as 'babysitting'
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I always had good public schools, and even both my parents taught in such (and had attended themselves). I don't ever remember being told what to think, the opposite, we were encouraged to expand our horizons. Not all districts are created equal, tho, look at the conservative idiots chopping out books they don't agree with as an example of a poor school district/governance.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
We're a country that is adamant that public education be as bad as possible. It sucks.

Having said that, my kids' school is pretty great, but elementary schools are usually pretty good. It's the high schools here that are the issue. Mine was so bad I'm not sure how I learned anything.
Well, my two boys went to the same high school. One went to college and earned an MSEE, the other joined the Air Force, no college.
A friend of my Air Force kid, same year and HS, went on and earned a PhD.
I would think it is the kid that has a lot to do with it.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Well, my two boys went to the same high school. One went to college and earned an MSEE, the other joined the Air Force, no college.
A friend of my Air Force kid, same year and HS, went on and earned a PhD.
I would think it is the kid that has a lot to do with it.
Give yourself a pat on the back, for again, good parenting is just as important ! :)
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Well, my two boys went to the same high school. One went to college and earned an MSEE, the other joined the Air Force, no college.
A friend of my Air Force kid, same year and HS, went on and earned a PhD.
I would think it is the kid that has a lot to do with it.
I agree with that. It very much depends on the kid. I remember being pissed because my Algebra 2 teacher just copied the book and showed it on the overhead. Then proceeded to read the book. I remember thinking "We can do this on our own. What are you here for?"

I don't remember him once teaching us anything. Not that it was difficult math, but still. Granted, I did go to school for EE so math isn't all that difficult to me.

Then there was my history teacher. He'd show us documentaries about the Roman empire and all sorts of interesting stuff....then give us a test on a totally unrelated subject and wonder why we didn't do well.

I could go one, but that's enough. I guess I'm lucky to be self motivated to learn some things.
 
MaxInValrico

MaxInValrico

Senior Audioholic
Well, my two boys went to the same high school. One went to college and earned an MSEE, the other joined the Air Force, no college.
A friend of my Air Force kid, same year and HS, went on and earned a PhD.
I would think it is the kid that has a lot to do with it.
Slackers don't last long in the USAF.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
OK, if your public schools are crap, I guess they all need to be privatized. I will stand by my support for public education here.
No, they need to be improved. I never wrote anything about using ONLY private schools.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I always had good public schools, and even both my parents taught in such (and had attended themselves). I don't ever remember being told what to think, the opposite, we were encouraged to expand our horizons. Not all districts are created equal, tho, look at the conservative idiots chopping out books they don't agree with as an example of a poor school district/governance.
They didn't teach what to think, back then- we had a Social Studies teacher who went on to be a member of the Wisconsin Assembly, as a total Liberal. In one of her classes was a kid who was diametrically opposed to her way of thinking and they would have shouting matches. Now, THAT'S being passionate. Or, stubborn. He went on to have a Conservative radio show, then switched sides and is now an MSNBC contributor.

I'm not sure, but they may just be trying to avoid getting bogged down with one side or the other and not trying to teach both angles.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
So all your posts about what is wrong in USA is based upon your personal experience? ;)

You should try do some reading yourself, assuming it’s quality.
No, it's about hearing and seeing what's happening- I have friends and family around the country and they vary in political leaning, so I get info that I can check out and compare. I"m saying that it's hard to get the picture from a distance.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
No, it's about hearing and seeing what's happening- I have friends and family around the country and they vary in political leaning, so I get info that I can check out and compare. I"m saying that it's hard to get the picture from a distance.
So oral anecdotes from people you know around in USA is better information than a well-researched article?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
So oral anecdotes from people you know around in USA is better information than a well-researched article?
How many versions of the incidents are used for those articles? People who analyze data don't see the real costs of the problems, they just see numbers.

Imagine that an accused murderer was arrested in the house adjacent to yours and that he was allowed to enter, but you don't know if it was the homeowner, an occupant, etc who was responsible. There was no apparent damage to the doors or windows. How, exactly, would incidents like that reflect the anger or fear in the neighbors? How would it reflect a decrease in the property values of the pissed off homeowners when they try to sell?

Numerical data is great if someone is looking at trends, but it doesn't really reflect the damage this kind of crime does, unless they actually take the long view and check the value & conditions of the area.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
How many versions of the incidents are used for those articles? People who analyze data don't see the real costs of the problems, they just see numbers.

Imagine that an accused murderer was arrested in the house adjacent to yours and that he was allowed to enter, but you don't know if it was the homeowner, an occupant, etc who was responsible. There was no apparent damage to the doors or windows. How, exactly, would incidents like that reflect the anger or fear in the neighbors? How would it reflect a decrease in the property values of the pissed off homeowners when they try to sell?

Numerical data is great if someone is looking at trends, but it doesn't really reflect the damage this kind of crime does, unless they actually take the long view and check the value & conditions of the area.
Imagine if you did some quality reading to become a little informed and knowledgable about your own country instead of just having a number of various unfounded opinions on subjects you don't know much about at all.

You sound just like those audiophools claiming that only people actually owning a device can comment upon it, despite whatever science and measurements says to dispute their claims. Same tired and empty emotional appeals to gloss over their poor arguments and ignorance.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
How many versions of the incidents are used for those articles? People who analyze data don't see the real costs of the problems, they just see numbers.

Imagine that an accused murderer was arrested in the house adjacent to yours and that he was allowed to enter, but you don't know if it was the homeowner, an occupant, etc who was responsible. There was no apparent damage to the doors or windows. How, exactly, would incidents like that reflect the anger or fear in the neighbors? How would it reflect a decrease in the property values of the pissed off homeowners when they try to sell?

Numerical data is great if someone is looking at trends, but it doesn't really reflect the damage this kind of crime does, unless they actually take the long view and check the value & conditions of the area.
That's why public policy shouldn't be based on personal anecdotes. They can certainly be used to illustrate examples of a particular problem. But, some media personalities and politicians weaponize those anecdotes to mislead the public into believing a problem is more widespread than the data would indicate. Being too close to a problem doesn't always lead to good decisions. That's why doctors shouldn't treat themselves and lawyers shouldn't represent themselves.
 

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