Pre-Pro and Amp vs AV Receiver for Surround?

[norge43]

Hello. I am new to Audioholics and the audiophile world, so forgive my limited knowledge on this topic. I want to set up an entry level audiophile surround system for my small condo and obviously would like to invest in the best components within my budget. I use the system for music 50% of the time and stream movies or TV shows 50%. My condo is an open flow-shaped kitchen to combined dining/living room. Total dimensions are 37' long x 12' wide x 8' high (@ 3552 ft 3). My actually TV/stereo set-up in the "living room" portion is roughly 14' long by 12' wide by 8' high (@1344 ft 3), but this is open to the condo's dining area and kitchen so I imagine this will affect the accoustics. I would like to keep my budget at @ $1800.00 or less if possible. This will be hooked up to a 5.1 sytem, though considering 2 subs if budget allows. Having a 7.2 set-up would allow for future expansion, but would be a trade-off in higher cost . . .

I have sifted through numerous product review here in Audioholics and am left a little overwhelmed in trying to compare apples to apples and am seeking advise and recomendations.

FIRST ISSUE: Does power by an amp, processing and control by a Pre-Pro (as opposed to a do-it-all AV Receiver) provide better overall quality sound, picture and performance? If so, this will limit my choices of Amps and Pre-Pros due to higher costs of individual components.

SECOND ISSUE: I stream most of my movies and much of my music. Bluetooth seems to be the rage, but I also like ethernet connectibility as it gives a better connection, speed, less refreshing, etc. for where I live. I would like a good built-in DAC and Streaming compatability.

THIRD ISSUE: I download most of my albums from an online source (Emusic) and save my purchased albums on my laptop and a thumbdrive. I downloaded and backed up my CD collection on my laptop and thumbdrive also. I play my music through my thumbdrive, inserted in my currect AV Receiver. I realize downloaded and streaming music is generally not the highest quality, but a good built-in DAC should help improve the sound quality some, should it not . . . ?

POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS: What are your thoughts and recommendations? Thanks much.

1. Outlaw Audio AVR 975 ($549) + 5000 Amp ($649) on sale for $1049 ++ Great reviews, strong power, US company. -- Only one sub input, so limited to one sub setup. -- 4K adapter adds $170. -- No Streaming or USB, would require purchasing a separate Streaming Device/DAC to watch movies and use USB, bluetoothe adapter adds $60.

2. Outlaw Audio AVR 976 ($929) + 7000 Amp ($949) = $1870. ++ Great reviews, plenty of power, 7.2 channels (two subs), 4K TV and movie viewing. -- No USB or Streaming. Bluetooth adapter adds $60, buy separate Streaming device/DAC adds significantly to cost. Already at top of my budget.

3. Emotiva BasX MC-700 Processor ($699) + A-500 Amp ($499) = $1198 or A-700 Amp ($599) = 1298. ++ Great Reviews, US made, 4K TV and moview viewing, good power. -- 5.1 and 7.1 allows for only 1 sub. -- No USB or Streaming requires Streaming Device/DAC, bluetooth adapter adds $50.

4. Anthem MRX 520 AV Receiver ($1400). ++ Great reviews, strong power, 5.2 for two subs ,4K TV and movies, great ARC sytem. -- No streaming or USB, would have to buy Streaming device/DAC, Though $1400 price allows for some money for Streaming device/DAC. -- No bluetooth with no ability to buy bluetooth adapter.

5. Cambridge Audio CXR ($1199). ++ Great reviews, strong power, 7.2 setup for future growth, Brown-Burr high quality DACs , Ethernet wif-fi, 4K TV and movie viewing. -- No bluetooth, adapter adds $75. -- Overall great reviews, though some say sound is somewhat lacking for this price.

As far as Streaming devices/DACs go, I found Bluesound Node 2i ($499) and AuRALic Aires Mini ($550) seem to get the best reviews for this price range. Added cost if unit doesn't have ethernet to Stream movies and music. . .

Thanks for any input or suggestions you may have.

 

[Leemix]

At this price point an AVR might get you the most for the money. I dont know about the Anthem or Cambridge but newer denon/marantz have a HEOS system integrated so no need for external streamer. Yamaha i think have something similar. You dont really need 2 sub outs on an AVR to use multiple subs but make sure if there are 2 sub out that they are individually managed because some are basically just an internal Y split.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[norge43]

Thanks for the reply. Didn't realize separate sub outs weren't actually "separate. " That is helpful and I will have to keep that in mind. You are correct. It seems I'll get more for my money in an AV Receiver.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Thanks for the reply. Didn't realize separate sub outs weren't actually "separate. " That is helpful and I will have to keep that in mind. You are correct. It seems I'll get more for my money in an AV Receiver.

Keep in mind that some actually are separate. Most of the mid range and higher denon and Marantz units use audyssey MultEQ xt32 with dual sub eq.

Agree too that in your situation an AVR is gonna be your best option.

 

[PENG]

My actually TV/stereo set-up in the "living room" portion is roughly 14' long by 12' wide by 8' high (@1344 ft 3),but this is open to the condo's dining area and kitchen so I imagine this will affect the accoustics. I would like to keep my budget at @ $1800.00 or less if possible. This will be hooked up to a 5.1 sytem, though considering 2 subs if budget allows. Having a 7.2 set-up would allow for future expansion, but would be a trade-off in higher cost .

. .

How far do you sit? For a 14' long room I guess it will be about 10' from the L/R speakers. In that case, assuming the sensitivity of your speakers is 87 dB/2.83V/1m, your need 280 W to hit reference level with just one speaker, or half that with 2 speakers. Reference level is 85 dB average, 105 dB peak and that would probably be too loud for condos. Even 80 dB average should be loud enough for most people, I normally watch movies at a moderately loud level of about 70-75 dB average. Every 3 dB spl increase/decrease corresponds to double/half the output power requirement.

You can use the linked calculator to figure out your power requirement.
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

FIRST ISSUE: Does power by an amp, processing and control by a Pre-Pro (as opposed to a do-it-all AV Receiver) provide better overall quality sound, picture and performance? If so, this will limit my choices of Amps and Pre-Pros due to higher costs of individual components.

Everything in the chain can affect overall sound quality, but once you get pass the entry level prepro/amp or avrs, it will be the quality of the source media and speakers that determine the overall sound quality, not the electronics.

SECOND ISSUE: I stream most of my movies and much of my music. Bluetooth seems to be the rage, but I also like ethernet connectibility as it gives a better connection, speed, less refreshing, etc. for where I live. I would like a good built-in DAC and Streaming compatability.

Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, Onkyo, Yamaha's mid range avrs and prepros all have high quality DAC onboard.

I realize downloaded and streaming music is generally not the highest quality, but a good built-in DAC should help improve the sound quality some, should it not . . . ?

Not really, garbage in garbage out. You need good quality recordings to begin with, DACs in most mid range AVP/AVRs are not going to be the bottleneck in terms of audio specs.

POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS: What are your thoughts and recommendations? Thanks much.

1. Outlaw Audio AVR 975 ($549) + 5000 Amp ($649) on sale for $1049 ++ Great reviews, strong power, US company. -- Only one sub input, so limited to one sub setup. -- 4K adapter adds $170. -- No Streaming or USB, would require purchasing a separate Streaming Device/DAC to watch movies and use USB, bluetoothe adapter adds $60.

2. Outlaw Audio AVR 976 ($929) + 7000 Amp ($949) = $1870. ++ Great reviews, plenty of power, 7.2 channels (two subs),4K TV and movie viewing. -- No USB or Streaming. Bluetooth adapter adds $60, buy separate Streaming device/DAC adds significantly to cost. Already at top of my budget.

3. Emotiva BasX MC-700 Processor ($699) + A-500 Amp ($499) = $1198 or A-700 Amp ($599) = 1298. ++ Great Reviews, US made, 4K TV and moview viewing, good power. -- 5.1 and 7.1 allows for only 1 sub. -- No USB or Streaming requires Streaming Device/DAC, bluetooth adapter adds $50.

4. Anthem MRX 520 AV Receiver ($1400). ++ Great reviews, strong power, 5.2 for two subs ,4K TV and movies, great ARC sytem. -- No streaming or USB, would have to buy Streaming device/DAC, Though $1400 price allows for some money for Streaming device/DAC. -- No bluetooth with no ability to buy bluetooth adapter.

5. Cambridge Audio CXR ($1199). ++ Great reviews, strong power, 7.2 setup for future growth, Brown-Burr high quality DACs , Ethernet wif-fi, 4K TV and movie viewing. -- No bluetooth, adapter adds $75. -- Overall great reviews, though some say sound is somewhat lacking for this price.

As far as Streaming devices/DACs go, I found Bluesound Node 2i ($499) and AuRALic Aires Mini ($550) seem to get the best reviews for this price range. Added cost if unit doesn't have ethernet to Stream movies and music. . .

Thanks for any input or suggestions you may have.

Cambridge Audio, Anthem, NAD don't really have better DACs build in, they typically sell for more, likely due to their much lower sales volume. Some of their targeted users are probably the so called audiophile leaning types who tend to rely on forum and print magazine reviews, and could be more prone to expectation bias. It does not mean products from those brands would "sound better". I believe many audiophiles (ex) would eventually learn to focus on high quality recordings, speakers and their placement, instead of the electronics, but obviously many will hold on to their firm belief forever.

Given your budget, it may be better to just go with a last year model AVR that offers the deepest discount, and if you end up needing more power, you can then add an external 2, 3 or 5 channel power amp and use the AVR as prepro.

 

[norge43]

Thanks for the reply. I'll have to read the specs more carefully and make sure to ask the sales reps about this. Any opinion as to Denon vs Marantz and any particular models you prefer? It seems they both have multiple offerings in my price point. I also realize they share the same parent company... thanks for your thoughts and advice.

 

[PENG]

Thanks for the reply. I'll have to read the specs more carefully and make sure to ask the sales reps about this. Any opinion as to Denon vs Marantz and any particular models you prefer? It seems they both have multiple offerings in my price point. I also realize they share the same parent company... thanks for your thoughts and advice.

The AVR-X3400H is available for $599 brand new right now but I think they will be sold out soon.

There is no exact equivalent Marantz model to the X3400H, the closest is the SR6012 but that one has 9 channel, and an process 11 channels.

Otherwise there are great deals for the AVR-X4400H for $899 and the SR7012 for $999. The SR7012 was listed $400 to $500 more at launch time. The two are almost identical except the Marantz has the 7.1 analog inputs that very few people need, and the HDAM modules that buffers the pre amp output and power amp input. That may be good on paper but any audible difference would in theory be negated by the upstream components/circuitry that are identical to the Denon's.

If you won't ever go beyond 7.1 or 5.1.2, the AVR-X3400H should suffice and will sound the same as the others to humans (except the golden ears) if power output is not the issue. Or you can wait a little longer and get the X3500H for the same price. Based on current availability and pricing, my preference is the SR7012.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

budget at @ $1800.00 or less if possible...am left a little overwhelmed in trying to compare...

Just a little overwhelmed?

As already mentioned, if you are on a budget, it's probably best to get an AVR from the major brands (Yamaha, Sony, Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, Integra),instead of an AVP (pre-pro).

Sound quality of AVR vs. AVP? They can be equally good. It depends on the speakers, acoustics, setup, and source.

DAC? All the DACs in these AVR and AVP are top notch and can sound equally good. It depends on the speakers.........

Some other thoughts:

Giant companies (like Yamaha and Marantz/Denon) will have significantly more development, research, and testing than smaller companies like Outlaw and Emotiva. They also have a lot more buying power and economies of scale, which means they can afford to sell more for a lot less.

PENG gave you an example of the Denon X3400, X4400, etc., which is often 40 to 50% off.

Other giant companies like Yamaha will also have big sales at various times. Pioneer also has some huge sales.

Yamaha is the only major company that extensively tests for HDMI compatibility. Yamaha is also #1 in reliability. Both statements according to one of our members - M Code. Obviously, there will be disagreements.

With smaller companies (Emotiva, Outlaw, etc.),you might get less features - lack of Dolby Atmos, Dolby Surround Upmix (DSU),DTSX, DTX NeuralX, MusicCast, AirPlay, HEOS, and other features you might like to use one day.

Some of us who have upgraded to Atmos, DTSX, and NeuralX absolutely love it!

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/the-dolby-atmos-dts-x-and-auro-3d-discussion-thread.112480/

You might also get more "bugs" and issues with smaller companies (less R&D, less testing, etc.).

I've been in this hobby for a long time and I've owned many AVR (Denon AVR-5308, many other Denon AVR, and AVR from Harman Kardon, Kenwood, Sherwood, Pioneer, Sony) and some AVP. I've also owned other separate amps and preamps for many years. The previous AVP I owned was the Denon AVP-A1HDCI. Now I own the Yamaha CX-A5100 AVP, Yamaha MX-A5000 AMP, and ATI AT2005 AMP.

And if I had a budget of $1,800 today, I would buy an AVR.

Now if your budget were $3,600, then that's a different story.

 

[pharaon]

.
And if I had a budget of $1,800 today, I would buy an AVR.

Now if your budget were $3,600, then that's a different story.

Time for a BUMP!

@AcuDefTechGuy
But why to buy a more expensive AVP if they sound the SAME as AVRs, as you said in this post?)

For curiosity reasons now I’ve bought Rotel RSP-1098 (Hi-end AVP from 2005). Looks like it sounds better than my Denon X3500. Could it be somehow? Both are powered by Rotel power-amp.

 

[lovinthehd]

Some just prefer to keep their boxes separate rather than have everything in one box like an avr. Plus you can keep a good set of amps for a long time with no obsolescence issues, rather than the avr which tends to need updating periodically over time to accommodate current trends in number of channels/codecs/video capabilities. Tends to cost a bit more this way still but not particularly due to audible differences. OTOH an avr like yours makes a fine pre-amp too. I doubt the Rotel is any different audibly in any meaningful way, and comparing properly can be difficult, but the flavor of dsp/eq it incorporates could well be different. From 2005 it lacks hdmi and the latest audio codecs so depends what gear you might use with it as to how useful it is.

 

[PENG]

Time for a BUMP!

@AcuDefTechGuy
But why to buy a more expensive AVP if they sound the SAME as AVRs, as you said in this post?)

For curiosity reasons now I’ve bought Rotel RSP-1098 (Hi-end AVP from 2005). Looks like it sounds better than my Denon X3500. Could it be somehow? Both are powered by Rotel power-amp.

I could just be because of your preconception. It means little unless you do an AB comparison set up under the same conditions, level matched and you don't know which one you are listening to. This has been mentioned many times on this forum but there are always people who won't bother because it is a lot of work to do it right, and after all if one has already paid more for their gear they may as well just enjoy the gear and believe it sound better than the alternatives considered. Completely understandable..

 

[pharaon]

I could just be because of your preconception.

So according to you it shouldn’t be any audible difference?
If not, then probably I’ll stay with Denon, because of its better connectivity (mainly due to Hdmi).

One thing I’ve noticed is that Rotel AVP has better(suited) preout voltage for Rotel power-amp, because I need to set up it on 3/4 sound Volume for reference sound level and on Denon I’m maxed out and still sound level is too low, hope adjusting FR FL speakers gain to the Max will equalize this difference.. If not - That’s the case when you would need separate Prepro.

 

[PENG]

So according to you it shouldn’t be any audible difference?
If not, then probably I’ll stay with Denon, because of its better connectivity (mainly due to Hdmi).

Yes, but not just according to me, it is according to findings by some experts including the famous Dr. Toole's group who did their loudspeaker comparison tests in double blind sessions for the same reason.

If you want to experience yourself, you can do it by investing time setting it up, with the help of a couple of friends. You said you have the Rotel already right, so you can at least compare the preamp sections.

You must know that line level preamp's (that is, use the line level inputs) job is mainly volume control. That's why the low cost AVRs such as D+M, Yamaha, and I bet Rotel as well, all use ICs. Since around 2016, D+M upgraded the volume control chip to the NJU72343 that is a "separate" medium scale integrated IC specialized in volume control, whereas Yamaha and some other boutique brands such as Anthem, probably Rotel too might have stayed with the LSI (large scale integrated) that does all sorts of things beside volume control. That most likely is the reason why the D+M (less so with Marantz) measured so well, better than the likes of Arcam and other high end AVPs). Good ICs are hard to beat, for handling low level signals such as preamps anyway.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Time for a BUMP!

@AcuDefTechGuy
But why to buy a more expensive AVP if they sound the SAME as AVRs, as you said in this post?)

For curiosity reasons now I’ve bought Rotel RSP-1098 (Hi-end AVP from 2005). Looks like it sounds better than my Denon X3500. Could it be somehow? Both are powered by Rotel power-amp.

We’re all wired differently.

I do use both AVP + Amps and AVR (without any external amps).

My philosophy on this subject is the following.

1. Most AVRs have enough power for most speakers in most rooms. If this were NOT true, there would be a lot of class action lawsuits.

2. If your AVR sounds great, then don’t worry about adding an external amp.

3. If you just want to add an amp for the sake of owning “Separates“, then why not just get an AVP + Amp?

4. If you’re buying an AVR + Amp that will total $4K, why not just get an AVP + Amp that cost less?

So in conclusion, either get an AVR by itself or get AVP + Amp.

Obviously, one camp thinks this way, and the other camp thinks differently. But at the end of the day, it’s YOUR system and you need to be 100% happy with it.

 

[lovinthehd]

So according to you it shouldn’t be any audible difference?
If not, then probably I’ll stay with Denon, because of its better connectivity (mainly due to Hdmi).

One thing I’ve noticed is that Rotel AVP has better(suited) preout voltage for Rotel power-amp, because I need to set up it on 3/4 sound Volume for reference sound level and on Denon I’m maxed out and still sound level is too low, hope adjusting FR FL speakers gain to the Max will equalize this difference.. If not - That’s the case when you would need separate Prepro.

What is the sensitivity of your amp? Different levels are usually interpreted with the higher level being "better" in informal comparisons. Just getting louder isn't everything, but the Rotel units indeed may be better intended for each other in terms of pre-out level and the amp's input sensitivity.