Pre-amps and power-amps??

[Tyrant]

<font color='#000000'>Hi

Being new at this, I have very, very basic questions that I need to ask? BTW, this is not to insult anyone's intelligence or anything, except probably my own, but first of all, why would I need a pre-amp, what exactly does it do, and how does it make a system better?
Also, almost everyone I can think of that is an audio or home theatre enthusiast, has at least one or more power amps to compliment their system.I can understand the need for them, but what I'd like to know is why do I sometimes hear of people owning an a/v reciever, like a denon 5803, which seems to have plenty of power to drive a 7.1 channel set-up, still have 2 or 3 amplifiers along with it? Btw....this is not to poke fun at people's preferences, I just want to know if this is overkill, do they really help in the overall sound quality that you hear, and are they really essentials in a moderate to high-end home-theatre system.
The reason I'm asking these questions is because I have a very modest 5.0( no sub...yet) home-theatre set-up in my apartment which consists of a yamaha RX-V630(6.1 and 75 wpc) and Klipsch Refernce RF3II(pair), RC-3II, and RS-3II(pair).The room is a moderate 15' by 13' and the sound I get from these things is great, very clear, and anything passed the -50db on the volume dial has the land-lord waving an eviction notice.I will eventually have a more dedicated room, which will be about 20' by 15', and I'll probably want to upgrade my reciever.Originally, I was thinking maybe I should just save my money big-time(and man, I do mean big-time) and treat myself to a flagship receiver, say the denon 5803 or the yamaha rx-z9, but it seems that my spending spree may have to include other components if I want to truly optimize my system.So now, I'm wondering if I should just go a few steps down in the reciever(maybe the yamaha 2400) and just compliment it with pre-amps and power amps.
Any info or insight on the subject would be great. &nbsp;

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[A. Vivaldi]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Being new at this, I have very, very basic questions that I need to ask? BTW, this is not to insult anyone's intelligence or anything, except probably my own, but first of all, why would I need a pre-amp, what exactly does it do, and how does it make a system better?
</td></tr></table>   A pre-amp basically controls all the functions that would normally be on a receiver. Such as volume, balance, bass, treble and so on. It will have all the rca inputs/outputs, phono, etc. The amp itself is just the main power source, connected to the pre-amp via interconnects. Audiophiles believe that having dedicated componenets to preform just one task is better for overall performance and sound quality. This is one of those subjective issues that we love to debate around here, and I think it may be true with certain makes and combinations, but there are all-in-one recievers that can be just as good, and certainly less expensive. <table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">what I'd like to know is why do I sometimes hear of people owning an a/v reciever, like a denon 5803, which seems to have plenty of power to drive a 7.1 channel set-up, still have 2 or 3 amplifiers along with it?</td></tr></table> I've seen pictures of systems like you described, and I have no idea why an HT person would have multiple amps along with a big main all-in-one reciever. Seems like it would make more sense to have one big multi-channel pre-amp instead, but I don't know that much about HT as of yet.  <table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The reason I'm asking these questions is because I have a very modest 5.0( no sub...yet) home-theatre set-up in my apartment which consists of a yamaha RX-V630(6.1 and 75 wpc) and Klipsch Refernce RF3II(pair), RC-3II, and RS-3II(pair).The room is a moderate 15' by 13' and the sound I get from these things is great, very clear, and anything passed the -50db on the volume dial has the land-lord waving an eviction notice.I will eventually have a more dedicated room, which will be about 20' by 15', and I'll probably want to upgrade my reciever.Originally, I was thinking maybe I should just save my money big-time(and man, I do mean big-time) and treat myself to a flagship receiver, say the denon 5803 or the yamaha rx-z9, but it seems that my spending spree may have to include other components if I want to truly optimize my system. </td></tr></table> Why don't you wait and see what your present system in your new room sounds like before buying something else? You might be surprised.<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm wondering if I should just go a few steps down in the reciever(maybe the yamaha 2400) and just compliment it with pre-amps and power amps.
</td></tr></table>   Why spend more than what your used receiver is worth on a reciever of the same make that's inferior? If you want to buy a better multi-channel amp that's fine, but you don't really need anything else, and buying seprate amps/pre-amps would cost you a lot more than that flagship receiver.

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[GeorgeM]

<font color='#000000'>&quot;I have a very modest 5.0( no sub...yet) home-theatre set-up in my apartment which consists of a yamaha RX-V630(6.1 and 75 wpc) and Klipsch Refernce RF3II(pair), RC-3II, and RS-3II(pair).The room is a moderate 15' by 13' and the sound I get from these things is great, very clear, and anything passed the -50db on the volume dial has the land-lord waving an eviction notice.&quot;

I kinda' got a chuckle out of your apartment situation. &nbsp;If you ever get a sub, I think your eviction notice will arrive at the speed of sound (pun intended!)...

Oh, oh, I think I hear the landlord's footsteps now... &nbsp;

-George M</font>

 

[Tyrant]

<font color='#000000'>Thanx Vivaldi for the input, and I just want to clarify something...

&quot; Why spend more than what your used receiver is worth on a reciever of the same make that's inferior? If you want to buy a better multi-channel amp that's fine, but you don't really need anything else, and buying seprate amps/pre-amps would cost you a lot more than that flagship receiver.&quot;

For me, going from the RX-V630 to the RX-V2400 would be a step up, not a step down.I would just be opting for this if I felt that having a good multi-channel reciever, coupled with either a pre or power amp would be better than just getting a big, honkin' reciever to do all the jobs at once.But I have realized your point, and that is, everything is subjective to my listening needs.....and my budget.....which is inversely proportional to my wife's spending needs &nbsp;

Tyrant</font>

 

[av_phile]

<font color='#000000'>Some HT afficionados started with an all-in-one HT receiver.  Thier  HT receivers have 5 amps good for a 5.1 set-up.  Some  receivers have 6.1 or 7.1 upgradability but only has 5 power amps.  So in some set-ups you can see an HT receiver plus two more power amps to power another set of speakers because while their HT receiver can pass 7 channels out of the preamp section, it only has 5 power amps.

In some situation, an HT receiver with pre-amp outputs use external amplifiers that are more powerful or better sounding.  I know some use the Pioneer VSX811S HT receiver as a preamp which is excellent in itself.  But because they feel that the power amp section leave much to be desired, they use external multi-channel amps.  

And in a mutli-channel HT set-up, you don't have to get just an all-in-one multi-channel power amp.  There are hi-end set-ups that use 3 or 4 stereo amplifiers or even 5-7 monoblocks to power all the channels they want.

It's also possible that the HT receiver has excellent multi-channel power amps and in an upgrade effort, a dedicated HT preamp that can decode newer formats like DTS Neo, Prologic II, DTS-ES, etc, is used while retaining the older receiver for its power amp.  

Then again, there are HT set-ups that use an HT receiver for mere video switching between video sources routed to a screen or monitor while using separate multi-channel preamps and power amps for audio.  That effectively cancels any video switching noise to enter the audio route.  

Lastly, there are set-ups that use an HT receiver for DVD watching and in the same rack house separate stereo preamps and power amps dedicated for music listening only.  And even the speakers for music and movies can be separate.

If you want to go big time in an HT or music set-up, nothing beats seaprates.  A Rotel, Krell or Sunfire HT preamp alone is more expensive and better featured than any flagship all-in-one receiver.  And a matching Rotel, Krell or Sunfire multi-Channel power amp is an option for those beauties. That's what is so nice about separates, you don't have to get the matching amps, you can go elsewhere like a trio of stereo Harman Kardon signature power amps, or Arcams and Parasounds, etc. Cheaper and just as good.  

(Frankly, in a multi-channel HT set-up. i don't see the relevance of an AM/FM tuner in those receivers.)

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[Tyrant]

<font color='#000000'>Okay, so here's another question.Let's say I want to go with separates....as some people may suggest.I start with a yamaha 2400( because it seems to be popular around here and because I currently own a yamaha rx and greatly enjoy its dsp's for movie watching).Now I decide to add 1 or more power amps to it for whatever reason I can think of.Do the new power amps affect the yamaha's dsp in any way, good or bad, or am I just using the power amps to &quot;help&quot;? Basically, I want to know which component(receiver, pre amp, power amp) has the last word when it comes to what I'm hearing through the speakers?Will a good pre or power amp make a good HT reciever sound even better? Do all the components feed off each other to create the total sound?

If anyone has some more info they would like to share, it would be appreciated.Thanx!!

Tyrant</font>

 

[cownd]

<font color='#000000'>Okay, so here's another question.Let's say I want to go with separates....as some people may suggest.I start with a yamaha 2400( because it seems to be popular around here and because I currently own a yamaha rx and greatly enjoy its dsp's for movie watching).Now I decide to add 1 or more power amps to it for whatever reason I can think of.Do the new power amps affect the yamaha's dsp in any way, good or bad, or am I just using the power amps to &quot;help&quot;? Basically, I want to know which component(receiver, pre amp, power amp) has the last word when it comes to what I'm hearing through the speakers?Will a good pre or power amp make a good HT reciever sound even better? Do all the components feed off each other to create the total sound?

If anyone has some more info they would like to share, it would be appreciated.Thanx!!

Tyrant</font>

I'm also very curious to hear answers to this. I have a 6.1 Marantz receiver - would a muiti-channel power amp just boost the power and work with the marantz so in fact adding watts - or by pass the marantz completely?? or possibly both??

 

[BMXTRIX]

The addition of outboard amps has no affect on surround settings or sound quality really. If it is a good amp, then it may offer cleaner amplification than what comes standard within your receiver, but perhaps not. It very likely increases your power output to your speakers, which allows you to turn them up louder.

But, all audio processing still happens within the receiver and no audio processing happens at all within the amplifier - or at least it shouldn't.

One of the added benefits of outboard amps is that you reduce some strain on your A/V receiver since it doesn't have to do double duty. This may help your receiver to last longer.

It also may reduce electrical noise inside the electronics of your A/V receiver. I gotta say that current A/V receivers really do a splendid job of keeping the amplification section completely isolated from the pre-amp section of the receiver so noise is very limited on current A/V receivers.

The question then becomes, do you get a stereo amplifier or do you get one with 5 channels or 7 channels of amplification? You can actually get 7 separate amplfiers and run all 7 channels of surround on it's own amp if you want to spend a lot of cash.

 

[Leprkon]

One of the added benefits of outboard amps is that you reduce some strain on your A/V receiver since it doesn't have to do double duty. This may help your receiver to last longer.

One other benefit of having a seperate is that, two years down the road when there is a Dolby 2010EX Plus Plus Plus or DTS UltimateToDieFor, you can upgrade to the new version with the investment of just the front end. You have a lower up-front investment than in a flagship, and you don't have to buy another flagship down the road. Once the signal is in analog form, the amps don't care what plus plusses you have, and they generally have much better signal to noise than the amp in a new receiver.

Just a thought.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Some people use outboard amps instead of their AVRs because.....

Example one: Attempting to power inefficient speakers. An AVRs "100 watts x 5!" is more likely to be 15 watts w/ all channels driven (A good example is a $100 Sony HTiB AVR). While 15 watts is actually enough power to make your ears bleed with a superefficient bookshelf sized speaker (Such as a horn loaded Klipsch w/ rating of over 100db/watt!), larger tower speakers, or just plain inefficient bookshelfs (less than 85db/watt) will require a much more powerful amp to reach near-refrene levels.

Example 2: New speakers are rated to 4ohm, while the receiver is an 8ohm design. Turning the volume up may damage the AVR or the speakers! So a 4ohm Amp is used.

 

[flyv65]

<font color='#000000'>Okay, so here's another question.Let's say I want to go with separates....as some people may suggest.I start with a yamaha 2400( because it seems to be popular around here and because I currently own a yamaha rx and greatly enjoy its dsp's for movie watching).

If yer gonna split hairs, you'd start by saying that a Yammie 2400 falls into the category of integrated amps/receivers: most people who refer to separates are talking about amplifiers, and preamplifier processors (or "prepros"). The prepro provides channel management, digital to analog conversion, Dolby, DTS, NEO 6, and all the rest of the happy crap. Integrated amps and recievers combine the two functions (processing and power) into one box-and a reccy adds a tuner. Back in the "day", general consensus was separates provided better sound for beaucoup bucks, and integrated components were simply a way to get you foot in the musical door..although the line between top end receivers and entry level separates has blurred appreciably of late. Depending on your speakers, you may find the 2400 provides all the oomph you require for your current situation.

Now I decide to add 1 or more power amps to it for whatever reason I can think of.Do the new power amps affect the yamaha's dsp in any way, good or bad, or am I just using the power amps to &quot;help&quot;?

Amps don't process-the prepro does. Your Yammie will continue to provide a plethora of DSPs to pick from while the onboard amps take a holiday. The signal goes from the source to your 2400 to be processed, then out through the preouts (pre-amplifier outputs) to the power amp, and finally to your speakers.

Basically, I want to know which component(receiver, pre amp, power amp) has the last word when it comes to what I'm hearing through the speakers?Will a good pre or power amp make a good HT reciever sound even better? Do all the components feed off each other to create the total sound?Tyrant</font>

If I had to bet I'd say that most people who are using receivers as prepros are doing so because they were looking for more wattage than the receiver/int. amp could provide. Many of the newer receivers have quite good processing and preout jacks, so adding a two channel amp to drive a pair of recalcitrant front channel speakers is as easy as, well, it's pretty easy. And as far as what part of your system has the biggest impact on what you're hearing, that's a piece of cake...it's your room. How are your acoustics?

Bryan...'course, that's just my opinion...