Powering RBH TK-5CT's-choosing avr handle impedance: some vauge specs

[MunkinDrunkey]

As title says I am searching for an avr to handle my tk-5cts. Right now I my avr is a 5.1 HTIB of the JVC variety that supposedly delivers 100W RMS min per channel.

With this http://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/rbh-sound-tk-5ct/tk-5ct-measurements-analysis-conclusion.html very informative review as my guide I have been trying to find an avr that can deliver around 100W rms and handle lower impedences (since speakers handle 75-150W and dip down to 4ohm). I typically listen to music and play movies/game at fairly high levels and my current avr has trouble with dynamic sounds (edm music is a very strenuous) and I don't hear a consistent sound level output.

OK now to questions about the avrs I've researched and their shortcomings or lack of decent info.
First on the list the Denon avrx-3100W or avrx-3000 http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx3100w/denon-avr-x3100w-7.2-receiver-wi-fi/bluetooth/airplay/1.html and http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx3000/denon-avr-x3000-7.2-4k-networking-receiver-airplay/1.html They seem virtually identical in the specs beside the wireless aspect. I want the pre outs and like that they are listed at 105W RMS at 8ohm 20Hz-20kHz. I can see on the picture of the back the 3100W can handle 4-16 ohm, but the 3000 is only 6-16 ohm. Does this mean for my rbh speakers the 3100w is a better avr to pair with? I'm curious if denon marks these somewhat conservative rating or not.

Now compare to Demon avr-3311Cl http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavr3311ci/denon-avr-3311ci-7.2-channel-network-home-theater-receiver/1.html
This one also happens to be 6-16 ohm. But since its price is listed as originally more, is this unit more capable down to 4ohm and rated more conservatively? Also I've only found specs on other sites that this is rated @125W per channel but this could be at 1kHz, if so this would prob only be similar to the 3100W in 20Hz-20kHz. Any thoughts of this avrs qualities in these regards?

 

[TheWarrior]

For those prices, I wouldn't think twice about nabbing either Denon. Like most receivers, they have preamp out connections so if say, your room is huge and you need additional power to crank up those towers, you can just as easily add a separate power amp.

 

[agarwalro]

If you need pre-outs, I'd recommend the X3100. It also has a higher level of Audyssey than the 3311.

If you don't need pre-outs, WiFi and Atmos, the X3000 and X3100 are going to be virtually identical.

 

[MunkinDrunkey]

For those prices, I wouldn't think twice about nabbing either Denon. Like most receivers, they have preamp out connections so if say, your room is huge and you need additional power to crank up those towers, you can just as easily add a separate power amp.

If you need pre-outs, I'd recommend the X3100. It also has a higher level of Audyssey than the 3311.

If you don't need pre-outs, WiFi and Atmos, the X3000 and X3100 are going to be virtually identical.

Yes I was really wanting the preouts for just that reason. I just wasn't sure how long it would be before I can afford an amp. I bought the speakers used (200 pair) so I have been keeping a tight budget. Since I missed the fact the 3000 doesn't have preouts its out of the running.

Only concern I have for now is the rating for impedance handling and power. On the 3311 6-16ohm vs the 3100W 4-16ohm. Also the 3311 may have a higher power output per channel, except I don't know if the 125W is at 1kHz or for the full spectrum.

 

[MunkinDrunkey]

I'm now thinking since preouts are a priority I should just go with a larger range for impedance handling and worry about minor wattage changes later.

Still I wonder how much the impedance rating on each avr matter with these speakers.

 

[agarwalro]

I'd take the 3100 and not worry about minor wattage difference. The superior Audyssey alone would be a clincher. You also get, a hugely improved setup GUI, better internet and network features for $20 more than the 3311.

To be honest, the 3311 will be fine too as far as driving those speakers, you'll just need to keep the volume in check.

 

[MunkinDrunkey]

I'd take the 3100 and not worry about minor wattage difference. The superior Audyssey alone would be a clincher. You also get, a hugely improved setup GUI, better internet and network features for $20 more than the 3311.

To be honest, the 3311 will be fine too as far as driving those speakers, you'll just need to keep the volume in check.

Thanks for the info. Just to get one last clarification. Your logic for the 3311 with keeping volume in check, is because of the avrs impedance range? I was thinking since I do like to listen to my music pretty loud that the speakers impendece vs frequency profile means at higher power those dips down to 4 ohm will cause a larger draw in current which may damage the avr by overheating?

 

[KEW]

I know you are stretching your budget right now, but these are a great deal for $209 shipped on closeout, but don't expect them to wait on you before they sell out!

300W/Channel @ 8 Ohms Stereo
525W/Channel @ 4 Ohms Stereo
775W/Channel @ 2 Ohms Stereo
Just sayin


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/674284-REG/Crown_Audio_XLS1500_XLS_1500_DriveCore_Stereo.html

 

[agarwalro]

Thanks for the info. Just to get one last clarification. Your logic for the 3311 with keeping volume in check, is because of the avrs impedance range? I was thinking since I do like to listen to my music pretty loud that the speakers impendece vs frequency profile means at higher power those dips down to 4 ohm will cause a larger draw in current which may damage the avr by overheating?

The amp when driven into clipping is a threat to the tweeters. Distortion harmonics may not be filtered out by the crossover and result in damage. This is a much bigger concern for active speakers.

Very good writeup on amps clipping and effect on tweeter (about mid way down) http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm .

 

[KEW]

The amp when driven into clipping is a threat to the tweeters. Distortion harmonics may not be filtered out by the crossover and result in damage. This is a much bigger concern for poorly designed active speakers.

Fixed it for you!
Just like a well designed subwoofer, a decent active speaker allows the manufacturer to select amplification that will not put the driver at risk no matter what you do with the volume control! This may be a major reason they are used for pro audio. I imagine a lot of bands would be blowing their monitors if they did not have the right design to be bullet proof.
I had my Focal Solo6's cranked in my 14,400 cu ft open basement, and one shut off. Scared the crap out of me until the other turned off within 3 seconds and I realized it must be a protection circuit.

Maximum SPL = 113dB SPL (peak @ 1m)

 

[MunkinDrunkey]

Thanks for all the advice @agarwalro and @KEW. I wasn't thinking about clipping as the other (far more important) power handling issue. With preouts I can ensure I have a good amplifier later anyway . I will look more into clipping- as I understand it quite well mathematically, but it is something I don't apply enough to have a decent intuition of. Its been more something to look at after, as almost a curiosity.

 

[agarwalro]

Fixed it for you!

Well, if you're going to be pedantic (Sheldon)...

... Here's my (Wolowotz) response...













.

 

[agarwalro]

Thanks for all the advice @agarwalro and @KEW. I wasn't thinking about clipping as the other (far more important) power handling issue. With preouts I can ensure I have a good amplifier later anyway . I will look more into clipping- as I understand it quite well mathematically, but it is something I don't apply enough to have a decent intuition of. Its been more something to look at after, as almost a curiosity.

Those speakers have rated sensitivity of 87dB (2.83 Voltz @ 1 Meter). Let's seat you at 3m. Roughly, 100W will give you about 105dB SPL. I will guarantee you can't tolerate this loudness for more than a few seconds at a time. Unless you're planning to exclusively listen to test tones, relax. Buy a receiver and get to the enjoyment phase.

 

[MunkinDrunkey]

Those speakers have rated sensitivity of 87dB (2.83 Voltz @ 1 Meter). Let's seat you at 3m. Roughly, 100W will give you about 105dB SPL. I will guarantee you can't tolerate this loudness for more than a few seconds at a time. Unless you're planning to exclusively listen to test tones, relax. Buy a receiver and get to the enjoyment phase.

Hehe I looked at a peak SPL calculator with these speakers and yes I agree (with my large room 3m is bout right) those sound levels are definitely very high. Now I have to ask was it at peak levels of playback you were expressing the clipping concerns only?
BTW I am now set to buy the demon x3100W

 

[agarwalro]

In average listening, you don't need to worry about transients (especially, if there's a sub in the mix). When you're blasting music/movies with sustained bass/mid bass notes (I'm looking at you Dubstep) (which make an amp run out of receive power; read amps with inadequate transformers and/or output stage capacitors) are the threat.

All that aside, unless you can pinpoint that your receiver/amp is insufficient, it most likely isn't.