Powering AR 4OHM Speakers

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Hi
I have a pair of old Acoustic Research TSW 610 speakers. &nbsp;The specs are as follows: &nbsp;

sensitivity/ 90db SPL

Amp Requirements/ 175watts max 15 watts min per ch

Frequency Response/ -3db(half power) points at 40 Hz and 40,000Hz(with an effective Q of 54 at resonance)

Impendance/4 ohms nominal (3.6 ohms minimum point)

crossover frequency/ 700 Hz, 5000Hz

these have a 12&quot; woofer

I have learned that cheap receivers dont work. &nbsp;Something to do with power supply and ohms, but it goes over my head. I am now looking at a few Onkyo models, being told at a local dealer that I MUST buy Integra (which is all he has) but in looking at the TX-NR900, TX-SR800 and the Integra DTR-7.3 I don't really see much difference in the specs. &nbsp;Is there? &nbsp;Why is this Integra better for me than just the regular Onkyo models? &nbsp;
Is there some other models in that price range 700-1000 that anyone could reccomend looking at? &nbsp;The worst thing with this Integra line is that it is impossible to compare prices, as there is no one online carying them! &nbsp;Any suggestions on where to buy would be equally appreciated.


Thank You!
brente</font>

 

[LongBinh6]

<font color='#000000'>Brente,

You have opened a lot of issues here. &nbsp;First of all, the dealer is blowing smoke! &nbsp;Of course he wants you to buy Integra (which is made by Onkyo) because he wants to make the sale. &nbsp;The models you list all seem to be THX certified (this is not necessary to have good performance but generally means they have hefty amps). &nbsp;They should ALL run the AR's with no problem. &nbsp;Find another dealer! &nbsp;

Check over carefully this site (Audioholics) and you will find links to many of their articles on the home page that give great info concerning receiver basics including power and ohms (impedence). &nbsp;It is complicated at first. &nbsp;Let me just say that generally the power ratings on the speakers, just ignore them. &nbsp;As long as you have more than 50 watts per channel you are fine. &nbsp;Too much power is no problem. &nbsp;Your ears will probably give out before your speakers do. &nbsp;Speakers are usually damaged by distorted power not clean power. &nbsp;Your speakers are rated at 90 dB (w/ 1 watt @ 1 meter). &nbsp;They will put out approx 110 dB's with a 100 watt input! &nbsp;That is very, very loud! &nbsp;The ohm rating is also complicated and not clear cut. &nbsp;The numbers are only a general guideline. &nbsp;The ohms actually vary a great deal depending on the frequency. &nbsp;All you need to know is that these AR's look to be average or a little above in &quot;speaker sensitivity&quot; and should not be a problem even at 4 ohms for any quality receiver in the $750 or above range and many below that range might still be OK. &nbsp;Looks like you have a woofer that crosses over to a midrange speaker at 700 hz and the mid crosses over to the tweeter at 5000 hz. &nbsp;The low end of the woofer is probably flat to about 50 Hz or so. &nbsp;You could definitely use a subwoofer. &nbsp;

You say that cheap receivers don't work. &nbsp;What do you mean by that? &nbsp;Did you have one shut down when running the AR's or did it not sound good? &nbsp;

Also, &nbsp;you are looking at home theater receivers but only mention a pair of AR's. &nbsp;Are you planning to add to them to make a home theater system? &nbsp;Sorry, but I would take a good look at the AR's. &nbsp;They must be about 12 - 16 years old? &nbsp;I have heard of this model's woofer surround giving out at about 15 years. &nbsp;If you do get into 5 speakers and a sub it is very important to have all 5 speakers with voice matching. &nbsp;There are other terms for this but it means that all 5 should sound as identical as possible, usually from the same brand and with the same tweeter and midrange.

The receiver that I would look at that I think has the most quality and a hefty amp for the bucks is the Denon AVR-3803 (runs about $1100 at dealers and about $900 online). &nbsp;The Denon 3802 (previous model and also sold as the 1082 is going for about $700 online). &nbsp;Any receiver in the mid group $750 - $1500 should have a good enough amp to run any normal 4-8 ohm speaker. &nbsp;Onkyo, Yamaha, Sony, Marantz and Pioneer also are good choices. &nbsp;If you buy a receiver with a 4-8 ohm switch on the back, LEAVE IT ON THE 8 OHM SETTING! &nbsp;This is explained in some of the articles on this site.

Hope this helps. &nbsp;Good luck. &nbsp;

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[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Thanks! &nbsp;I needed to hear those things. &nbsp;Now I know I am heading in the right direction.

I have a cheap $200 Sony Reciever and it's PROTECTION screen pops up about every other time I try to play something, and then shuts down.

The AR's are close to 10 years old. &nbsp;However they were barely used for a year, and then put in the box and stored at my fathers ever since. &nbsp;They appear to be in excellent shape. &nbsp;

I do not have surround currently, and do want to go that route. &nbsp;I understand about matching the speakers and am somewhat puzzled as to what to do... &nbsp;I was thinking that I could just put the AR's on A and buy a inexpensive $500 or so six speaker set up from Polk or AR again and run those on B. &nbsp;Then for movies I could go to B and Music A. &nbsp;

However, after sitting in some listening rooms last night and hearing the new audio DVD's and SuperCD's in a better surround system, I realized that I might really like to have surround sound for some of this new music... &nbsp;I don't think an inexpensive set of surround speakers would cut it. &nbsp;

Any advice there would be great. &nbsp;For now perhaps I will just find a good reciever and wait on buying a decent surround set up till later, unless I learn that I can get great sound out of less than a $1000 bucks worth of speakers. &nbsp;I do have a VERY small room.

Thanks again and please fill me in on speakers if you have some advice.

Brent</font>

 

[Audioholics]

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brente : <font color='#000000'>I have a cheap $200 Sony Reciever and it's PROTECTION screen pops up about every other time I try to play something, and then shuts down.</font>

<font color='#000000'>Check all of your speaker connections as well...</font>

 

[JCC21K]

<font color='#000000'>The Sony ES line of receivers will handle your 4 ohm speakers.
These receivers are one of the few where the manufacturer
gives specs on 4 ohm loads. From several posts to this
Forum and others, I have seen people having trouble with
4 ohm speakers with some receivers.
Here is the math on it.
P = IE
Power (in watts) = I (amps) times E (volts)
I = E/R
I (amps) = E (volts) divided by R (ohms)

So....if you have low ohm speakers while voltage
remains the same....you get more amps (current)
and perhaps more than a particular receiver is designed
to deliver and then you get &quot;clipping&quot; or shutdown.

Receivers with heftier power supply can handle the
low ohm speakers.

The Sony ES 4 and ES 5 can be found in the price range
you mentioned.  For reasons I don't understand, there
is a bias against Sony receivers in the Home Theater
and Audiophile Forums I have been visiting.
True, Sony's low priced receivers are not the quality
of the Elites and Denons.  But the ES receivers compare
well with all the well-known brands.
ES receivers have 5 year warranties.
ES receivers lead the pack in user friendliness.
Regards
JC

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[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Thank you JC,
I too have been biased against Sony as that is the unit that crapped out on me and won't drive these speakers. &nbsp;I never looked at their hi-end stuff. &nbsp;I am heading to a new place on Thursday to give the Rotel a listen, but I will check out the ES as well.
Thanks again
B</font>

 

[LongBinh6]

<font color='#000000'>Brente,

I am getting ready to buy a new receiver also. &nbsp;I have eliminated the Sony DA4ES for several reasons including a horrible remote in my opinion. &nbsp;If you do get the Sony look into the Home Theater Master MX-500 remote made by Universal. &nbsp;Check it out at www.remotecentral.com. &nbsp;Also, the DA4ES is reviewed in the January issue of Sound &amp; Vision Magazine. &nbsp;The other thing that concerns me is the omission of the all channels driven simultaneously figures. &nbsp;Read the review and you will see what I mean. &nbsp;You probably can see it at wwwsoundandvisionmag.com. &nbsp;Otherwise, the DA4ES is a nice unit with lots of flexibility. &nbsp;It goes for about $700 on the internet. &nbsp;Put Sony STR-DA4ES in your search engine and you will find lots of prices. &nbsp;I think the Denon AVR-1082/3802 is about equal to the Sony DA4ES. &nbsp;I feel the Denon AVR-3803 is probably a better buy. &nbsp;Check it out in detail at www.usa.denon.com. &nbsp;Again, don't worry about all this talk about impedence and the ratings. &nbsp;There are articles that explain all this. &nbsp;Manufacturers list 4 ohm ratings to get the UL listing approval and also put the 4/8 ohm switch on the back of the unit. &nbsp;If you search this site (the FAQ's section)you will find the articles. &nbsp;ALL QUALITY RECEIVERS IN THIS PRICE RANGE WHETHER THEY LIST A 4 OHM RATING OR NOT WILL DRIVE MOST NORMAL 4 OHM SPEAKERS OF REASONABLE SENSITIVITY WITH NO PROBLEM UNDER NORMAL OPERATING SITUATIONS. &nbsp;The amp on a $200 receiver is very questionable and was probably shutting down. &nbsp;

I wouldn't do the A/B speaker thing. &nbsp;You will find that you will probably want to listen to music with Dolby Pro Logic II after you hear it. &nbsp;Most decent home theater speakers sound very good on music also. &nbsp;I don't want to disappoint you but I think you will be surprised what you can get for under $1000 (in other words the AR's might not sound so good compared to what you can find today and you will have a hard time finding a suitable sonic match which is extremely important...E-BAY?). &nbsp;With a small room I would definitley consider a satellite/subwoofer set up. &nbsp;Don't be put off by the small size. &nbsp;I have 3 systems, 2 of which are Energy Take 5 plus ES-8 sub, still available online for about $700. &nbsp;The sound is outstanding on both movies and music. &nbsp;The comments that you will see that these speakers lack midrange or are good on movies but not music is not true. &nbsp;They are very flat in frequency response and don't have the boomy bass which many listeners mistakingly think is warm sounding or good high bass/low midrange. &nbsp;Check the reviews at www.audioreview.com. under &quot;Energy Loudspeakers Take 5.&quot; &nbsp;Also check the newer model Energy Take 5.2 system. &nbsp;The reviews on both are excellent. &nbsp;Look also at Definitive Technology Pro Cinema 80 or 80.2. &nbsp;Also systems in your price range from Polk, Klipsch, Infinity, Athena and others.

Another option: check www.goodguys.com. &nbsp;They have a package with the Energy take 5 plus 1 with a Denon receiver (I think it is the 1603). &nbsp;

Good Luck!</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>thanks for the advice. &nbsp;yes the more i research, the more i see the AR's going out of the picture. &nbsp;but isn't it true that unless its an audio dvd made for surround sound, or one of these super audio cd's... the sound only comes out of the front speakers anyway?
thanks
brent</font>

 

[LongBinh6]

<font color='#000000'>No brente! &nbsp;

You are confused about the DVD-Audio and the Sony SACD. &nbsp;They are extra high definition CD's, but there are lots of problems with the introduction of these two formats. &nbsp;Stay away from them for the time being. &nbsp;The current home theater receivers play music using many different options: &nbsp;plain old two channel stereo or &nbsp;multi-channel (5 or more channels depending on the surround mode) playback using all the speakers in your home theater system. &nbsp;Some of these new modes such as Pro-Logic II and Denon's 5-channel stereo amongst others sound excellent. &nbsp;Once you have heard them (if they are done right), old 2 channel stereo might sound a little dull.

Go to www.timefordvd.com and you will find great information about home theater receivers and DVD formats under their &quot;tutorials&quot; section. &nbsp;This is an outstanding and easy to understand section for learning the basics.

LB6 &nbsp;

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