power conditioning

[peanut brain]

Hi All,

I live in an older apartment where all the electrical outlets are the 2-prong type, rather than 3-prong. Which means that most items I plug into the wall have to go through a 2-prong-to-3-prong converter first. I assume any type of adapter degrades the signal somewhat, but are there any bigger dangers I need to look out for?

The reason I have concern is because I've got an APC surge protector for my computer that has been blinking a "building wiring fault" light. I don't know if this light is due to the use of the power adapter, or if there is something more insidious at hand.

Therefore, I'd like to have some protection for my hi-fi system. Right now it is plugged into an inexpensive Acoustic Research surge protector, which is then plugged into the above mentioned adapter, which is plugged into the wall. I'm thinking of upgrading to a Monster HTS1000. From most reviews I read, it improves video quality but is questionable about audio quality. Is this a sound choice? I'm also considering the PS Audio Juice Bar.

On a related note, can someone explain to me what a ground loop is, and if it's anything I need to be concerned with?

Sorry for all the questions. I'm quite clueless about electrical matters, but don't want to compromise my hi-fi system.

C in Los Angeles
-----
Cambridge Audio Azur 540C
Cambridge Audio Azur 540A
Cambridge Audio DVD55
Canare Star Quad

 

[mulester7]

I'm thinking of upgrading to a Monster HTS1000. From most reviews I read, it improves video quality but is questionable about audio quality

.....welcome, PeanutBrain, and you'll find competition for that title at this site mainly from yours truly....I would definitely give Monster a chance to impress me on the video side, with Radio Shack Gold Line thrown in the mix....optimum conditions would be a free chance to demo AB and return.....

 

[Paragon Pro]

Power Matters

Don't fret, we can get you through this

Regarding your APC, its not "seeing" a ground if you are using a ground lift adapter. So, according to your power center, the "ground" is faulty. If the light is bothering you, I would check the owners manual to see if there is an adendum for 2-prong applications.

Regarding ground loops, that's a fun subject. To put it simply, A ground loop is when two pieces of equipment share more than one ground connection. So, if you could see all the wiring inside the walls and in the equipment, you could follow the wires around and see how they make on big connecting loop. This is essentially a "loop" antenna; like the very old days of antennas. Since an antenna is designed to pick up signals or frequencies, it picks up the best frequecy close to it and adds that signal into the "loop." In this case, the frequency is 60Hz, the frequency electricity runs at in typical US residences. The most obvious sign of this is the "60Hz buzz or humm" that can be heard in audio systems and sometimes seen on video displays. A bad ground loop problem can make a system sensitive to various interference and can eventually lead to system damage. For a really good geek read on this stuff, check out this article: http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/

Regarding the power components themselves:
The biggest thing I tell all of my clients is, "don't look at the power center as a piece of equipment, look at it as an insurance policy." Would you carry $500 worth of insurance for a $10000 car? Then why put a $20 Home Depot power strip on thousands of dollars worth of quality AV equipment? I do see that you are using a nicer AR piece, so you know the value of your equipment. There are great upgrade options and devices that can improve both your video display, and audio system. Unfortunatly, good power comes at a price. The optimal would be pieces from Richard Gray's power company. They are not cheap, but the single most incredible piece I've ever put into my system. The ended up being the cheapest investment by how many problems it solved. I like Panamax products the next best for a more realistic price point solution, and finally Monster. While I know Monster makes good products (I used to sell them), Panamax makes power products--that's it! They don't make blenders, and speakers, and cable, and toasters and .... you get the point. They are one of the better products out there, that's their focus, and that's what they do. Look at the product fully: does if offer EMI (Electro-Magnetic Interference) and RFI (Radio-Frequency Interference) filtering? Surge protection? How much surge protection? If the unit fails, is there any recourse? How will it help, or hurt, my system. Yes, some can hurt a system too. If they are breakered to low, they can starve the system of power and under-powering can be just as bad as over powering.

It looks like I owe you an apology for the discertation I hope this has atleast been helpful. You have a nice system and have made a healthy investment in it. Don't be afraid to do some more homework, call manufacturers direct and ask questions. Get all of your info and then you'll know you are making a good purchasing decision.

Good luck and I hope it all works out.
D.

 

[mulester7]

.....hahaha....am laughing.....EXCELLENT, ParagonPro....first or second post....seriously, welcome, ParagonPro, and yay, Clint.....ParagonPro, they ever give you paragoric when you wuz little?.....

 

[Paragon Pro]

With a post like that, you would think I was fishing around and realized all the times I've been on this site, I've never posted anything. I guess I made up for two years of not posts in a single bound;-)

 

[mulester7]

.....paragoric....buddy, that stuff will put crying kids who need it, out....the wife said ten drops in the bottle of juice, and my fingers said squirrrrrt....the kids weren't crying soon, and that was the main thing to me....their insides are hurting, they can't talk, and they ain't gonna' be an alcoholic over it....they won't need it, long before, they can even talk....controlled situation.....what?.....

.....ok, the thread is about power conditioning, and I'm posting.....well, let's see, I'll have to say, I'm for it, and you'll get your best deals on the 128 oz cans of powder-mix online....keep them lids on tight, Gentlemen....am I full of advice or what?....I heard that......

 

[Paragon Pro]

LOL!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the fantastic welcome. I haven't had a good laugh like this in long time. This is going to be fun. I'm off, thanks again.
D.

 

[Nick250]

Very nice post Paragon, lots of good info. I agree about having good portection for one's investment in audio and video equipment. However, I can's see how a power conditioner will improve one's audio and video.

 

[peanut brain]

Thanks for the great info, everyone. Much appreciated.

 

[mtrycrafts]

However, I can's see how a power conditioner will improve one's audio and video.

He is in business, selling is his game

 

[mtrycrafts]

I live in an older apartment where all the electrical outlets are the 2-prong type, rather than 3-prong. Which means that most items I plug into the wall have to go through a 2-prong-to-3-prong converter first.

You have no choice here, unfortunately


I assume any type of adapter degrades the signal somewhat,

Poor assumption.


The reason I have concern is because I've got an APC surge protector for my computer that has been blinking a "building wiring fault" light. I don't know if this light is due to the use of the power adapter, or if there is something more insidious at hand.

As was stated above, it is looking for a 3 wire connection that it doesn't have.

Therefore, I'd like to have some protection for my hi-fi system. Right now it is plugged into an inexpensive Acoustic Research surge protector, which is then plugged into the above mentioned adapter, which is plugged into the wall. I'm thinking of upgrading to a Monster HTS1000. From most reviews I read, it improves video quality but is questionable about audio quality. Is this a sound choice? I'm also considering the PS Audio Juice Bar.


Monster is an expensive proposition, looking for a problem. Good surge protection can be had from Tripp lite. Consumers Report reviewed surge protection some time back and this is rated highly.


On a related note, can someone explain to me what a ground loop is, and if it's anything I need to be concerned with?

This was also explained above. If you don't have an audible hum issue, you don't have a ground loop problem. Most of the ground loop is from the Cable TV connection that can be solved with a specific cable TV ground isolator for around $6 or so, maybe $10.

Sorry for all the questions. I'm quite clueless about electrical matters, but don't want to compromise my hi-fi system.

We are here to help

 

[HookedOnSound]

Peanut Brain,

Imho you should address your current problem about you apartment wiring.

Can you talk to your landlord on this matter to see what can be done?

Have you considered moving? Seriously.

This goes beyond merely improving your audio/video but is also a safety issue. I don't know your country's law or electrical codes but where I live, those types of wiring are downright illegal!

As long as you can't provide your audio equipment with a proper ground, I don't believe that your power protection equipment will operate properly. In fact I suspect you'll void any insurance/warranty policy altogether.

Most of the designs used operate on the basis that these units are able to shunt excessive power to the ground (example: lightning strikes)

Good Luck

 

[mtrycrafts]

I don't know your country's law or electrical codes but where I live, those types of wiring are downright illegal!
Good Luck

It is illegal for new construction, yes, but does that mean all the older buildings must retrofit? I don't think so.

 

[mulester7]

He is in business, selling is his game

....now picture a railroad monkey-wrench in your wristwatch.....

 

[indcrimdefense]

peanut brain,

i have a monster hts 1000. im no monster fan, but this a decent product, although i think you could get the same performance with a product from another company at a cheaper price. as for impact on video quality i have not seen any difference, but i have a 15 year old sony trinitron so i am not exactly on the cutting edge for video. i have noticed at times a drop in noise level by having all my components hooked into the hts 1000 as opposed to being plugged directly into a wall socket.

 

[Paragon Pro]

More Power!!!

Peanut Brain,

You are getting some good info here, just beware the mis-information. Power Conditioning is something that fits the mantra, "You get what you pay for." As mentioned earlier, and reinforced by others in these posts, you won't have a grounding problem since you don't have a ground wire connected to your system.

Regarding, "the game" that we all participate in, I started my own company to get away from "the game" of the "garbage," stores and companies with untrained staff polute the market with. There is A LOT of hype and junk out there. These big companies are trying to cash in on HE profits with marketing and rebadged garbage the same way Price Club/Costco is cashing in on rebadged, junk plasmas.

Power is a very real issue. Without it, none of our kick-*** toys would function. As another product of a free market economy, power in the U.S. SUCKS!!! We take decent 240v balanced power in from the street, and split it into two 120v legs runninng throughout our homes. With our wonderful power comes an insane amount of noise, garbage, and instabillity. If you want to know more about "the game" I'm talking about, (don't take my word for it) check out the website for your local utilities company. You can find info on "their" site about the normal operation of local electric and how power problems, irregularities, etc., can happen from a few times a day to several hundered times a day. I keep a rack mounted voltage meter and power conditioner in my studio system where I type these posts. In the time I've been on here, we have gone from 114v earlier to 108v as I'm typing. I have come in sometimes to work in my sound studio and have seen the meter at 128v. Every-so-often, my "extreme voltage" light will by on and the entire system will be disengaged until I reset it. Do you suppose that my house is unique and it only happens here? I'm just a big geek and keep this stuff monitored and protected since I have such a huge investment in my sound studio. This happens all over the US, all the time. Just because you are not home, and your equipment is turned off, doesn't mean it is not taking a beating all day.

Now, in defense of "mtrycrafts" post regarding our industry and "the game," this person (just trying to be polite and politically correct since I do not know your gender) is correct that there is a great deal of hype and marketing. I'm not trying to scare you above to think that your equipment will spontaineouslty combust in a matter of minutes, it hasn't yet, right? That being the point (and I think "mtrycrafts" point) is that the only thing that has changed recently is these posts and you furthering your knowledge. Equipment companies know our power irregularities in this country, and they uses switchable power supplies and electronics inside of the equipment to help compensate for this. The power supply has a range of voltages it works within, not just "120v or NO SOUP FOR YOU!"

If all you are worried about is surge protection, then you just need a decent surge protector. Make sure it is not breakered so low as to hinder your equipment. WARNING, GEEK STUFF TO FOLLOW!!!:
See what your electrical and the associated power pieces are doing by using this basic electrical formula:
W=A (watts divided by volts equals amps) Hope that comes out.
V

The quick check is the basic outlet: an outlet has a 120v and is usually 15A. By completeing this formula, we see that the average home electrical outlet provides 1800 watts. Now, if you add a cheap power strip to your system (Home Depot special), and it is breakered at 12A, you have how much power going to your system? Anyone?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Buller?

Anyone?

You with your hand up.............correct 1440 watts. And yes, for extra credit, your are correct that you have now taken an important 360w away from your system (and it only cost you $9.95 to get rid of that power) WHAT A BARGIN (Any Eddie Murphy fans?)

I hope this makes sense.

As far as Nick250 asked regarding improving audio/video with power, it is possible to a point. What we are really talking about is performance. Like using pump gas in a Ferrari, it will run, just not at its peak. As power fulctuates and does funny things, your components are fighting to keep everything as stable as possible. So, since the electronics inside don't have full, stable power, they can never be at their maximum potential. The confusion lies in the "improvement" part of the marketing. Its not that the power equipment "adds" more amplification, or lines of resolution, etc., it's that the Power equipment stabilizes the power so all the circuits and gizmos inside have full, clean, un-fluctuating power all the time. Now instead of the system trying to figure out how to give you maximum performance with 60% to 80% of power from the wall (depending on the electric company) it can give you 100% performance since it now has a steady, clean supply of 100% power. You are hearing what your system has always been capable of, you've just now added the racing fuel to your Ferrari. The best place to read more about power is at: http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com/faq/index.html

This is the only Power system I've ever used that works exactly the way it claimed. At the company I worked for previous to my insanity of going into business for myself, we carried them all: Monster, Panamax, Trip-lite, APC, everything. The Richard Gray put them all to shame. As I was doing "my homework" learning this stuff, I actually got to talk to Mr. Richard Gray over the phone, and meet him to talk more at a CEDIA convention. He's not a salesman or marketing guru, he's an engineer. That's what helped me the most; no hype, no garbage, just strait geek talk. My company is not big enough (yet) to be a dealer of Richard Gray Power Products. I get nothing from this except trying to help spread education and good information. While trying to start up, we had some rough times to keep our heads above water. To keep the dream alive, I ended up selling off my theater equipment. I can honestly say the piece I miss the most is my RGPC 400 MKII. The only thing we have left is the TV and it has gone down since the RGPC was removed. My wife and I agree that we miss that even more than we miss the Krell processor. To us, it made a noticable difference.

DAMN I'M LONG WINDED

Hope this has been helpful, or atleast entertaining