Power conditioners question?

[BobSD]

First how do many of you feel about the benefit of these units?

I decided to try out the PPP, power Plant Premier. And I just do not feel comfortable with it especially the price tag. It does seem to do all that they claim, But I have two issues with it.
1. This thing gets as hot as an Onkyo when playing components, and it has a twin fan that would not come on after two hours of continuous playing, also in the sleep mode, (they say not to turn it off when not using), it stays fairly warm.
2. The out put is reading 121, and the input is reading from 122 to 123, I called the company and they said the factory calibration may be slightly off, but that everything should be fine.
I can return this unit for a full refund and am thinking I just may, and am now looking at a Panamax max 7500 - Pro. Any thoughts, would be much appreciated! Bob

 

[Adam]

Bob, my opinion is that you should return it if you aren't comfortable with it. If you are getting a full refund, then you really have nothing to lose - if you decide later on that you do want one, then you just buy another one.

Were you having problems with your power before you bought it?

For the other readers here (who can Google just as well as I can, but I'll try to save you some time), the PPP is an AC regenerator - the Panamax Max 7500-Pro is not.

 

[BobSD]

Thanks for your quick reply Adam. No I am not having any problems with my systems, but have been using a Monster surge protector, and would really feel good about managing the power in and out flow because where I live lights kinda flicker at certain times of the day and I like the idea of isolating the power cords from each other . I did see some improvement with my 5.1 Def Tech speakers powered by a integra, (using the PPP) but little or no difference with my power amp/preamp to my Martin Logan speaker setup. They just sound so good I do not think they can improve much more. So I was wondering if trying the panamax and if any one likes them, or the PPP?

 

[Adam]

You may want to try out a less expensive conditioner to see if one of those would provide the same benefits that you experienced with the PPP. One that seems popular around here is the APC H15 that is on sale for $150 at the AH Store. Some people have reported quality issues, but others are quite happy. I have a Belkin PF31D that I bought for about $130 off of Amazon a couple of years ago. I can't say that I noticed any difference in audio or video quality when I started using it, but I had a Panamax strip before that, and I really didn't expect power "conditioning" to do anything - I bought it for the surge protection and outlets. I was very pleased a couple of weeks ago when the Belkin was able to remove a hum (probably a ground loop) from my system when I ran my external TV antenna cable through it. That was a nice touch.

 

[Nomo]

IMO, the $2000 MSRP for that is insane.
I'm one of the happy bunch that picked up the APS H15.
Beautiful unit once you get past the silver color.
I just don't see what the PPP has over the H15.

 

[audiohonic65]

I was always sceptical about power conditioners ever since they were launched. The point here is that a great power supply will bring a big transformer with it, which is pretty heavy.

 

[TLS Guy]

First how do many of you feel about the benefit of these units?

I decided to try out the PPP, power Plant Premier. And I just do not feel comfortable with it especially the price tag. It does seem to do all that they claim, But I have two issues with it.
1. This thing gets as hot as an Onkyo when playing components, and it has a twin fan that would not come on after two hours of continuous playing, also in the sleep mode, (they say not to turn it off when not using), it stays fairly warm.
2. The out put is reading 121, and the input is reading from 122 to 123, I called the company and they said the factory calibration may be slightly off, but that everything should be fine.
I can return this unit for a full refund and am thinking I just may, and am now looking at a Panamax max 7500 - Pro. Any thoughts, would be much appreciated! Bob

Send it back. Those units are not worth it. What they do is regenerate your power though power transistors oscillating at 60 Hz which is why they make so much heat and are failure prone.

My good friend Dr Phil Marin was persuaded by his dealer to buy a unit like that made by PS Audio. The cost was $2500. A few months ago he was having strange issues with his system, and his dealer went so far as to send his CD/DVD player back to McIntosh, who found nothing wrong with it.

I came down to investigate, to find that PS unit was deconditioning his power!

That unit was sent in for repair to the tune of $275. It is now for sale at Hi-Fi Sound Minneapolis, at a price of $1400, if anyone is interested. The dealer commission is $400.

I installed for him a nice refurbed smart UPS from APC, that he is very happy with.

What you really require, is a unit that protects from even small amounts of over or under powering in less than 5 ms, preferable 1 to 2 ms. Also it needs to isolate you from big spikes and surges.

The most economical way of getting that protection is from refurbed APC units. They are money very well spent.

I can't stress enough how small amounts of under and over voltage are damaging to modern electronics, like receiver, CD/DVD/BD player, cable/satellite boxes and TVs.

My units cut in and out frequently. This morning we had a major power outage, and went in less than 5 secs to the standby generator. In these events power is often very rocky when the power comes back on. I have the generator set to stay on until the grid voltage is stable within reasonable parameters. Then the generator shuts down and then the UPS units handle it by themselves. As long as this situation did not occur for too long the UPS units alone would have had enough battery power to handle it.

So a fast acting UPS is what you need.

 

[Yamaheart]

So, do you guys recommended the APC H15 as a good buy? Since I also need 1 for my system. Thanks.

 

[FirstReflection]

There are basically four potential aspect of a "power conditioner".

The first is surge/spike protection. This is an obvious "must have". If there is a surge from the power company (typically happens after a black out when the power comes back on) or a lightning strike, you need something that will protect your gear. Any UL certified surge/spike protector is all you need for this "first step".

Second, is a battery backup/Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS). If a brown out or a black out happens, power can be instantly lost to your devices. Anything that needs to cool properly is unable to do so. Any hard drive that is spinning suddenly stops. And anything that was in progress is halted without a proper shut down cycle. The goal of battery backup/UPS typically isn't to keep your entire system going during a black out. Instead, the goal is usually to just give you enough time to properly shut everything down. You can turn anything with a cooling fan to standby and allow the cooling fans to do their job as the device powers down. You can save your data. And you can keep your DVR recordings going or save your progress in a videogame.

I cannot recommend highly enough that you have battery backup/UPS in your system.

Third, there is filtering. This is rarely necessary. But some neighborhoods have very "dirty" power with lots of stray interference entering the power lines. There is also independent filter "banks" on some power conditioners. The idea here is to prevent any device "cross-talk" within your own system. If you connect something with an electric motor to the same outlet bank as your gear, you'll likely get "snow" on your display or hear static through your speakers. Filtering can eliminate the RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) or EMI (Electromagnetic Interference) that might be picked up by your local power lines or introduced into your house wiring by an electric motor.

Finally, there is Voltage Regulation. The power that comes into your home will generally stay between 100 and 130 Volts AC. And pretty much any device can tolerate that range. But, occasionally, the incoming power might dip or peak below or above that range, and when that happens, there is some chance of damaging your equipment. A Voltage Regulator simply keeps the Voltage within a tolerable range.

Like the others here, my recommendation goes to APC. You can get the first two (and most important) aspects of power conditioning - surge/spike protection and battery backup/UPS for a relatively low cost with APC's UPS products.

You can also opt to get all four aspects (and a prettier case) with their J Type or S Type Home Theater Power Conditioner offerings.

People have recommended the H Type models. I respectfully disagree. For not that much more, you can get superb battery backup/UPS added to the features of the H Type models by purchasing a J Type model instead. The first time the power goes out, you will instantly know why I recommend battery backup/UPS so highly

The S Type models are a little more sophisticated and can generally deliver greater total Wattage output than the J Type series. But for most systems, the J Type models will offer more than enough and they are considerably less expensive.

I cannot recommend the J Type APC models highly enough!

The other power conditioners that are out there are mostly either over-priced or just plain ineffective and based on no real science (or both). Products like Richard Gray's Power Company can even be outright dangerous and that is why you will never see a UL sticker on them!

All of APC's products are fully UL Certified and there are no ridiculous claims of improving your sound or picture by somehow altering the power that comes out of your wall. The APC products will protect your gear - first and foremost - and with models that offer filtering and voltage regulation, they will also eliminate any stray interference. That is all that a power conditioner can and should do. And the APC products - the J Type models in particular - do it for a very reasonable price and they do it extremely well.

Return the unit that you have and get an APC J15

 

[westom]

So, do you guys recommended the APC H15 as a good buy?

Read the specs for that unit. It has the same specifications found in a $7 surge protector selling in the grocery store. If they call it a power conditioner, then it can sell for a higher price? Yes.

If you need that solution, you need it for everything in the house. That means spending a whopping $1 per appliance for something that actually does provide some protection. Something that is routinely installed in any facility that cannot suffer damage. One 'whole house' protector.

If they put some fancy paint on a new box and get the electrically naive to recommend it, then it must be better? Then you must need it? View its specs numbers. It does not even claim to protect from the electrical anomaly that typically causes electronics damage.

 

[njedpx3]

+1 for APC H15 recommendation

So, do you guys recommended the APC H15 as a good buy? Since I also need 1 for my system. Thanks.

Yamaheart,

I have two APC H15s for a little over 6 months and I had one bad power outage during lighting storm, power flickering on-off. NO equipment problems during that time

Even though we have underground power; power is iffy during rainstorms, which are fairly frequent here.

Good Luck!

Forest Man

P.S.- bought one from Amazon , one from Audioholics- as I remember I paid about $150 for each. It was my first order from Audioholics; was very impressed with Audioholics order process, status, packaging, and delivery.

 

[TLS Guy]

If you want a fancy box, the APC J 15 is what you need. However, a referb. like this will do everything you need.

I just installed on of these for a friend, and it is a great unit. He is in St. Paul MN. He says the unit is frequently operating to especially support voltage and also on occasions shave voltage.

He had an expensive power conditioner before ($2550) that deconditioned his power!

 

[westom]

I have two APC H15s for a little over 6 months and I had one bad power outage during lighting storm, power flickering on-off. NO equipment problems during that time

Why would power off cause damage? Power off is a reduced voltage. Electronics damage is created by increased voltage; currents conducted where currents should not be flowing. Why do you assume a power outage is an increased voltage?

How many other appliances were destroyed by that 'power outage'? How many unprotected devices destroyed such as dimmer switches, dishwahser, kitchen and bathroom GFCIs, television? To know that an APC did anything, you must list the so many unprotected appliances destroyed by that power outage. Otherwise your conclusion is a perfect example of junk science reasoning. Why are so many unprotected appliances not harmed?

Nobody quotes APC numeric specs for one simple reason. APC does not claim that protection in specs. OP fears voltage variations that are perfectly acceptable to any appliance. Even electric motors may be harmed by a larger voltage variation that is perfectly normal for electronics.

A witch doctor blessed my electronics. Now I have protection equivalent to what APC claims. A conclusion based in all available spec numbers.

 

[TLS Guy]

Why would power off cause damage? Power off is a reduced voltage. Electronics damage is created by increased voltage; currents conducted where currents should not be flowing. Why do you assume a power outage is an increased voltage?

How many other appliances were destroyed by that 'power outage'? How many unprotected devices destroyed such as dimmer switches, dishwahser, kitchen and bathroom GFCIs, television? To know that an APC did anything, you must list the so many unprotected appliances destroyed by that power outage. Otherwise your conclusion is a perfect example of junk science reasoning. Why are so many unprotected appliances not harmed?

Nobody quotes APC numeric specs for one simple reason. APC does not claim that protection in specs. OP fears voltage variations that are perfectly acceptable to any appliance. Even electric motors may be harmed by a larger voltage variation that is perfectly normal for electronics.

A witch doctor blessed my electronics. Now I have protection equivalent to what APC claims. A conclusion based in all available spec numbers.

Very few pieces of electronics are actually destroyed by the type of surge a surge protector is designed to shunt to ground via a thyristor. Surge protectors provide minimal protection.

First lets take a power cut. There will be a transformer near your dwelling supplying two or three residences. Transformers are inductive devices. When you suddenly shut power to an inductor, it resits, and rapidly increases voltage before the voltage dies. This is the phenomenon of back EMF. It is a big force and real. However this back EMF spike will be below what a surge protector would shunt, but quite large enough to damage modern electronics with micro processors. This includes, receivers, TVs, DVD players, satellite and cable boxes.

The next issue is that the grid is getting old and deteriorating. Voltage on many areas is not controlled nearly as well as it used to be, especially in terms of voltage being properly supported at times of peak load. After moving to a relatively remote area I was not surprised to find the power showing low voltage at times in the winter. However it can show significant over voltage in summer, which did surprise me. At my friends house in St Paul MN, I was surprised to find that hings are actually no better. In fact on hot days with high air conditioning loads, under voltage periods are significant.

Now modern electronics, hates under voltage. The more powerful and complex the microprocessor chip the more vulnerable. So you need a device that will constantly cut in to support voltage at 108 volts and shave at 130 volts. Response time should be no longer than 5 msec and preferably less than 2 ms.

As an example, when I installed my system here, the studio was covered with three UPS units. I had a system on the first level, that also had a Direct TV HD DVR, the same as in the studio. The first winter, the low voltage periods took down the unprotected HDDVR as well as the roof electronics, three times. So I had to place a UPS at that location also and have had no problems since.

With the current state of the grid, surge protectors are minimal to no protection. Any electronics that is complex with microprocessor circuitry need fast acting UPS protection.

 

[westom]

Very few pieces of electronics are actually destroyed by the type of surge a surge protector is designed to shunt to ground via a thyristor. Surge protectors provide minimal protection. ...

With the current state of the grid, surge protectors are minimal to no protection. Any electronics that is complex with microprocessor circuitry need fast acting UPS protection.

UPSes are so slow that many - maybe hundreds of consecutive surges - could pass through that UPS before it responds to anything. UPSes take tens of milliseconds to respond. Voltages that cause damage are done in microseconds. One need only read UPS spec numbers. No place is protection from that surge even discussed.

Electronics that once had to withstand up to 600 volts without damage are now rated to withstand thousands of volts. Even interface semiconductors are now rated to withstand 2000 or 15,000 volts without damage per international standards.

Electrical anomalies that typically cause damage (that can overwhelm internal protection) are averted at the service entrance. Where does that energy go? Either energy is harmlessly absorbed in earth. Or that energy goes hunting for earth destructively via appliances.

If back EMF from a transformer creates destructive spikes, then 60 hertz electricity that turns off 120 times per second also creates back EMF spikes. It doesn't? Exactly. That back EMF is a subjective myth not found in actual practice. And if that transformer does create a destructive spike, well those UPS spec numbers say why that spike would pass right through the UPS - why a UPS does not respond fast enough.

Old grid? That is the nonsense promoted in politics by the naive to the naive. The grid is even better and more reliable today then when it was new in the 1950s. But an 'old grid' plays to those who learn subjectively and who routinely entertain misguided fears. Same people also believe a UPS provides that protection rather than first demand spec numbers - to see no such protection really exists.

Anomalies that typically cause damage cannot be stopped. What does that UPS do? Tries to stop what cannot be stopped. Anything that attempts to stop a typically destructive transient is simply overwhelmed by a massive voltage increase that blows through. Protection has always been about earthing before that transient can enter the building. As the NIST said, “The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.”

 

[TLS Guy]

UPSes are so slow that many - maybe hundreds of consecutive surges - could pass through that UPS before it responds to anything. UPSes take tens of milliseconds to respond. Voltages that cause damage are done in microseconds. One need only read UPS spec numbers. No place is protection from that surge even discussed.

Electronics that once had to withstand up to 600 volts without damage are now rated to withstand thousands of volts. Even interface semiconductors are now rated to withstand 2000 or 15,000 volts without damage per international standards.

Electrical anomalies that typically cause damage (that can overwhelm internal protection) are averted at the service entrance. Where does that energy go? Either energy is harmlessly absorbed in earth. Or that energy goes hunting for earth destructively via appliances.

If back EMF from a transformer creates destructive spikes, then 60 hertz electricity that turns off 120 times per second also creates back EMF spikes. It doesn't? Exactly. That back EMF is a subjective myth not found in actual practice. And if that transformer does create a destructive spike, well those UPS spec numbers say why that spike would pass right through the UPS - why a UPS does not respond fast enough.

Old grid? That is the nonsense promoted in politics by the naive to the naive. The grid is even better and more reliable today then when it was new in the 1950s. But an 'old grid' plays to those who learn subjectively and who routinely entertain misguided fears. Same people also believe a UPS provides that protection rather than first demand spec numbers - to see no such protection really exists.

Anomalies that typically cause damage cannot be stopped. What does that UPS do? Tries to stop what cannot be stopped. Anything that attempts to stop a typically destructive transient is simply overwhelmed by a massive voltage increase that blows through. Protection has always been about earthing before that transient can enter the building. As the NIST said, “The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.”

My UPS units have a typical response time of 5 msec max, though 1 to 2 msec is typical. And yes they do work perfectly on my scope, at times of instability, like ice storms.

I can tell you in my tenure as building chairman of our large multi specialty clinic, I reduced downtime and equipment failures dramatically with an aggressive UPS program.

 

[westom]

My UPS units have a typical response time of 5 msec max, though 1 to 2 msec is typical.

Therefore it can provide power during power blackouts (computers can run tens of milliseconds without power while that UPS responds). And it cannot stop destructive electrical anomalies (that typically occur in microseconds). A destructive surge could repeat over 100 consecutive times before your UPS even responded (according to your numbers).

A UPS provides battery power when AC mains fail. It does not claim to protect from and is not fast enough to respond to typically destructive electrical anomalies. Even your numbers say why.

As a designer of some 'tested' systems, and from 100 years of well proven knowledge; the effective solution implements earth ground. Your UPS does not. We did not just reduce failures. Failures had to be completely eliminated. No damage even from direct lightning strikes. Only UPS that met that criteria is located at the service entrance within feet of earth ground. Or we obtain an equivalent solution by earthing a 'whole house' protector. In every case – and as quoted from the NSIT – the effective solution means proper earthing.

We did not learn by simply 'trying this and trying that' aggressively. We first learned the science. Demanded numbers. Even wire impedance is a significant factor. Your UPS without that shot and dedicated connection to earth would be insufficient. And probably costs more money. But even worse – its numbers do not even claim what you would have it do.

A UPS especially without the always required earthing will do one thing successfully. Provide temporary power during blackouts. That does not provide hardware protection. One need only read manufacturer spec numbers to appreciate same.

So that the rare and destructive transient does not also harm that UPS, or to accomplish what is well proven by over 100 years of knowledge; install and properly earth one ‘whole house’ protector. A protector that costs about $1 per protected appliance. Why? Hardware protection is only as effective as the earthing – where destructive energy must be harmlessly absorbed.

 

[TLS Guy]

Therefore it can provide power during power blackouts (computers can run tens of milliseconds without power while that UPS responds). And it cannot stop destructive electrical anomalies (that typically occur in microseconds). A destructive surge could repeat over 100 consecutive times before your UPS even responded (according to your numbers).

A UPS provides battery power when AC mains fail. It does not claim to protect from and is not fast enough to respond to typically destructive electrical anomalies. Even your numbers say why.

As a designer of some 'tested' systems, and from 100 years of well proven knowledge; the effective solution implements earth ground. Your UPS does not. We did not just reduce failures. Failures had to be completely eliminated. No damage even from direct lightning strikes. Only UPS that met that criteria is located at the service entrance within feet of earth ground. Or we obtain an equivalent solution by earthing a 'whole house' protector. In every case – and as quoted from the NSIT – the effective solution means proper earthing.

We did not learn by simply 'trying this and trying that' aggressively. We first learned the science. Demanded numbers. Even wire impedance is a significant factor. Your UPS without that shot and dedicated connection to earth would be insufficient. And probably costs more money. But even worse – its numbers do not even claim what you would have it do.

A UPS especially without the always required earthing will do one thing successfully. Provide temporary power during blackouts. That does not provide hardware protection. One need only read manufacturer spec numbers to appreciate same.

So that the rare and destructive transient does not also harm that UPS, or to accomplish what is well proven by over 100 years of knowledge; install and properly earth one ‘whole house’ protector. A protector that costs about $1 per protected appliance. Why? Hardware protection is only as effective as the earthing – where destructive energy must be harmlessly absorbed.

Your point about whole house surge protection and adequate house grounding are well taken. However UPS systems are complimentary and handle significant power fluctuations over extended periods. Most including mine offer as much grounding of damaging spikes as any plug in surge protector.

So UPS systems and stable voltage control are complimentary with whole house surge protection.

 

[westom]

Your point about whole house surge protection and adequate house grounding are well taken. However UPS systems are complimentary and handle significant power fluctuations over extended periods.

How does it stabilize voltage fluctuations when it connects electronics directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode? No fluctuations are removed by a typical UPS. Typically it has a relay between AC mains and electronics. How does a relay remove fluctuations?

What does a typical UPS output look like? This 120 volt UPS in battery backup mode outputs two 200 volts square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. That is some of the 'dirtiest' electricity see by most appliances. Many believe a UPS 'cleans' power because popular myths are promoted by hearsay. Since electronics are so robust, that 'dirty' UPS power is simply ideal and acceptable to electronics.

That 'dirty' UPS power may be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. But not harmful to electronics that are required even by international standards to be so robust.

A power strip protector is not earthed. That wall receptacle is not called earth ground. It is safety ground. Code calls it equipment ground. Receptacle safety ground is not earth ground.

Critical to protection is a low impedance connection. Wire thickness is not important. Wire length is critical. To be earthed, a protector must connect short (ie 'less than 10 feet'), ground wire must have no sharp bends, no splices, etc. Also a ground wire must not be inside metallic conduit and must be separated from other non-grounding wires. More electrical reasons why neither a power strip protector nor UPS are earthed.

If that power strip or UPS provides protection as claimed, then post manufacture spec numbers that make that claim for each type of surge. You cannot. The manufacturer does not claim that protection that others want to believe. Where are the specs numbers? Numbers are never provided. Try to find some yourself. At best, it only protects from a type of surge that typically causes no damage.

Again, view the specs. How does its few hundred joules stop and absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules. It has near zero protection. Near zero protection is promoted in color glossy sales brochures as surge protection. Then the naive believe it has massive protection. Ignore the numbers and we can even predict the second coming of Christ.

All appliances contain significant protection. For example, anything that a UPS would do must already exist inside electronics power supply. At best, that UPS's power supply is as robust as other electronics. But that is protection for the UPS's controller; not for appliances connected directly to AC mains via its relay.

Protection means destructive energy must be earthed before entering a building. Once inside, that energy will hunt for earth destructively via appliances. Defined previously was "to accomplish what is well proven by over 100 years of knowledge". Even 100 years ago, no protector was installed to stop or absorb surges. Suddenly $7 protectors selling for $25 and $150 will do that? Nothing stops the typically destructive surges - the surge that can overwhelm protection found in all appliances.

Even 100 years ago, effective protection was about earthing before that energy could enter a building. In facilities that must never suffer damage, no plug-in protector or UPS is used. Earthing is upgraded for even better protection.

What would a power strip protector or UPS attempt? Block or absorb the surge? Nonsense. Explains why that protector without the necessary earthing does not even claim protection in its numeric specs.

Provided are maybe six different reasons why your solutions are not effective. Why it did not work 100 years ago and is still not used anywhere that damage cannot happen. Protection has always been about where that energy gets absorbed. Protection is about a protector as close as possible to earth and farther from the protected appliance. Understood even 100 years ago: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. In residential environments, an effective protector is connected less than 10 feet from single point earth ground. Every incoming wire in every cable must make that same short connection to the same electrode. Protection is about earthing - no about the protector.

 

[TLS Guy]

Fortunately, I have not had to check the the ability of my four UPS devices to handle a lightening strike. However I can assure you they tightly control voltage, so in this regard you don't know what you are talking about. My UPS devices will not let voltage rise over 130 volts and will shave the voltage of it does and start to supplement the voltage from the battery, without going to full battery power, if the voltage drops below 108 volts.

Also mine are generator certified. My back up generator does not produce the cleanest wave, but the UPS devices clean the signal to a considerable degree. I have good test equipment to prove it.