Possibly the dumbest quesion ever posted?

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bushido

Junior Audioholic
OK, here it is: How do you use a subwoofer? If you are running a 2.0 set up? I've never had one. Do you run the speaker wires from the receiver into the sub, and then from there into the speakers?

Why would a powered sub be used vs an un-powered one?

I've heard that for music, subs (vs a good full-range speaker) might not be necessary, as, while they might be great at reproducing an explosion or a jet engine in a home theater set up...that does not mean they can add to music. (I don't have home theater)

I've read quite a few threads in here where recommendations have been made to use bookshelf speakers (mine are all floor standing) along with as many as 4 subs!! I'd love to hear that set up...

Thanks in advance
Onward and upward
Puff
 
Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
Not the dumbest question ever asked, but you might want to clarify a few things;
1. What 2.0 setup do you have, could you describe your equipment - Are you using a receiver?
1a.Subwoofer is usually connected via via XLR (balanced) or RCA (unbalanced) cables. Most modern receivers use the later.
2. Typically you use a subwoofer output of your receiver to the subwoofer (which may or not be powered) A majority of subwoofers are powered
3. A powered subwoofer is beneficial because you don't need a separate amp to drive, or power the sub to make sound
4. Some people prefer the sound of subwoofers when they are driven by an external amp and there can be benefits (someone else can elaborate more on this)
5. I run full range tower speakers and the sub is still a benefit for both music and movies.
6. I have seen a lot of people who run dual subs, but 4 subs sound a little overkill for most people and a lot of it will depend on room size and conditions. In my small loft 19x16 one sub does the job fantastically, but having two subs can be a benefit as well.
7. My current home theater room in process will have dual subs
 
B

bushido

Junior Audioholic
I don't have a subwoofer-out on my amps. Left/right only.

Sony CD Player>>Emotiva DAC>>Toshiba amps>>speakers
 
crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
I don't have a subwoofer-out on my amps. Left/right only.

Sony CD Player>>Emotiva DAC>>Toshiba amps>>speakers
in that setup just split the analog audio singal out of the emotiva to either a powered sub or a passive subs amp with a Y splitters.
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
OK, here it is: How do you use a subwoofer?
Step 1: Plug in subwoofer.
Step 2: Play bass through it.
Step 3: Be prepared for women to start spontaneously removing their clothes.

If you are running a 2.0 set up?
Pretty much the same as above.

I've never had one. Do you run the speaker wires from the receiver into the sub, and then from there into the speakers?
With an AVR or other receiver that has an RCA or XLR subwoofer output, no. If all you have to work with are already-amplified high level speaker leads from an amp, then most subwoofers do have high level inputs and a passthrough to allow that sort of thing. More on this later.

Why would a powered sub be used vs an un-powered one?
Convenience I guess. Doesn't really matter whether the power comes from a plate amp built into the enclosure, or from an external Crown amp or similar. Power is power. On the other hand, plate amps typically have features that make them a perfect match for use in a subwoofer, such as a variable low-pass filter and phase control; whereas an external amp might not.

I've heard that for music, subs (vs a good full-range speaker) might not be necessary, as, while they might be great at reproducing an explosion or a jet engine in a home theater set up...that does not mean they can add to music. (I don't have home theater)
Wrong. Subs are great for music, even if your mains are full range. Why? Well, it mostly has to do with your room. Bass will sound thin and lifeless in some parts of the room, but may sound boomy in others. And depending on where your bass is coming from, those nodes and nulls will most definitely shift. In other words, the best location for your main speakers for producing solid imaging and sound stage at your primary listening position is likely not going to be the best location for bass response in your primary listening position. Adding a subwoofer allows you to tune your system to your room. See the subwoofer crawl. Adding two subs is even better. Additionally, if you can set a high pass filter on your amp powering your main 2.0, then diverting the sub bass to a subwoofer can relieve some strain from your main stereo amp, allowing you to play more cleanly at higher volumes.

I've read quite a few threads in here where recommendations have been made to use bookshelf speakers (mine are all floor standing) along with as many as 4 subs!! I'd love to hear that set up...
Me, too.

Thanks in advance
Onward and upward
Puff


I don't have a subwoofer-out on my amps. Left/right only.

Sony CD Player>>Emotiva DAC>>Toshiba amps>>speakers
Insert sub here:

Sony CD Player>>Emotiva DAC>>Toshiba amps>>subwoofer>>speakers

Most active subs provide speaker-level inputs and outputs. Most of those act as a simple passthrough. The signal going from the amps to the main stereo speakers isn't touched, so you still hear what you heard before from your 2.0; except that the subwoofer taps that signal and plays the deep parts. Occasionally you might come across a sub, like some Hsu Research subs for example, that will split that high-level signal at the frequency set on the sub's crossover dial, sending everything above to the mains and everything below to the sub driver. Such a feature makes tuning your blend a little easier, but it's not crucial. If you choose a sub without that feature, you can just dial the sub's crossover to a few Hz above the -3dB point of your towers, and use a little trial and error to salt to taste if you wish.

Alternatively, you could do this:

Sony CD Player>>Emotiva DAC>>this Rolls SX45>>Toshiba amps>>Speakers
                                                    |
                                               subwoofer
 
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Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
View attachment 13616View attachment 13617

Here is an example of two of my subs.

Pic 1: Paradigm Seismic 12
- Powered Sub (XLR or RCA) connections, but no line level (speaker inputs)

Pic 2: Golden Ear Forcefield 4
- Power Sub (RCA or High-Level (Speaker Wire) Input From L/R Main Speaker terminals of Receiver or Amplifier)
- Page 9-11 talks about how to set it up, as I have no experience hooking it up this way (see link for manual below)

http://www.goldenear.com/images/manuals/ForceField_Manual.pdf


In this case since you don't have the out on your equipment, follow the instructions listed above and look for a subwoofer with the High-Level (Speaker Wire) Input From L/R Main Speaker terminals. There are plenty of great options on subs, Golden Ear subs are decent, but there are better options out there depending on your budget.

I hope this helps, it did help me because I had to fix the settings on my paradigm sub :)
 
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agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
OK, here it is: How do you use a subwoofer? If you are running a 2.0 set up? I've never had one. Do you run the speaker wires from the receiver into the sub, and then from there into the speakers?
There are several ways,
1) Have a pre-amp (stereo or AVR) that does bass management, redirecting audio input to main speakers and subwoofer.
2) Y splitters on DAC device's audio out. Pretty harmless unless you start splitting out too many times.
3) Use a device that mirrors audio input to multiple outputs (similar to the Y splitters in concept, except, this device may provide additional features like signal level control, crossover and EQ capabilities. Also worth mentioning that in case, there will be no signal loss in mirroring the signal.)
4) Send full range audio to subwoofer and use speaker out (on subwoofer) to main speakers
#2 is the easiest and cheapest option, #1, 3 are the proper way to go about it and #4 is not an option I'd recommend.

Why would a powered sub be used vs an un-powered one?
The only difference is personal preference. In theory, an unpowered sub can be mated with any amp of your choice, so that option provides more flexibility. But, one must know what they are doing to make sure the amp matches the passive sub capabilities. Also, if any EQ (low frequency cut off, response shaping, high frequency cut off, etc.) needs to be applied to protect the driver, the user will be on the hook to make sure this is done. On the other hand, buying a well designed powered sub means, the manufacturer has already optimized the amp + driver combination, thereby making it plug and play.

I've heard that for music, subs (vs a good full-range speaker) might not be necessary, as, while they might be great at reproducing an explosion or a jet engine in a home theater set up...that does not mean they can add to music. (I don't have home theater)
If you listen to any synthesized music with low frequency content, Rap/Hip Hop, Dubstep/DnB, Dance/Electronica, etc. you will definitely need a sub even with full range speakers. Unless you have some behemoth full range speakers that can do justice to the bass frequencies.

I've read quite a few threads in here where recommendations have been made to use bookshelf speakers (mine are all floor standing) along with as many as 4 subs!! I'd love to hear that set up...
I whole heartily second your desire to hear a setup with multiple subs. It may just reset your concept of good bass :).
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
this is far from dummiest question - the one which gets me is "I bought X. How did I do?"
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
While I wouldn't call it the dumbest either, it DOES get asked a LOT.
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
There are several ways,
1) Have a pre-amp (stereo or AVR) that does bass management, redirecting audio input to main speakers and subwoofer.
2) Y splitters on DAC device's audio out. Pretty harmless unless you start splitting out too many times.
3) Use a device that mirrors audio input to multiple outputs (similar to the Y splitters in concept, except, this device may provide additional features like signal level control, crossover and EQ capabilities. Also worth mentioning that in case, there will be no signal loss in mirroring the signal.)
4) Send full range audio to subwoofer and use speaker out (on subwoofer) to main speakers
#2 is the easiest and cheapest option, #1, 3 are the proper way to go about it and #4 is not an option I'd recommend.
Agreed that #1 and #3 are the proper options.

Examples of #1:

Velodyne SMS-1 (rare online, found exactly one for sale here, unknown whether seller will ship)
SVS AS-EQ1 (discontinued, currently unable to locate any for sale new or used)
MiniDSP -- common and the least expensive, but has a very steep learning curve
DSPeaker Anti-Mode -- less common and more expensive, but much easier than MiniDSP
Any AVR with correction (Audyssey, YPAO, MCACC, etc) -- most common and easiest

#2, I wouldn't trust that method. Serious harm could befall bushido's DAC. At the very least, even if it did work as intended, you'd be halving the line-level signal going into your main speaker amps.

#3, Get the Rolls SX45 (or from a commercial vendor if the eBay sale is expired when you pull the trigger) -- cheaper than #1 and should work well, although without the benefits of parametric EQ for room correction

#4, at least it's safer than #2, and doesn't require any additional electronic equipment purchases.
 
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B

bushido

Junior Audioholic
Some of you may find this funny as I just now read all of the above replies: I unconsciously found myself scratching my head after reading all of your generous comment/advice. Thank you!

Just when you thought you knew a bit about something (stereos)...you stumble into a website full of Audio Grand Masters. "Phase, slope, delay, db, crossover, eq capabilities,mirroring the signal...." Gulp.

Then again...there's always headphones!! :D

True confession: I am a sucker for a great bass line. I am admittedly building my humble system around a handful of songs, but if I had to pick one it would be Reach For It by George Duke... I'd love to hear feedback (not Hendrix) if any of you choose to play that gem through your amazing systems.

Y'all have really narrowed things down for me (yeah right), and I will continue to show up for class in my white belt...but now I'm thinking of a second-dumbest question: Why would someone prefer a down-firing sub vs a side-firing, or top-firing (if there is such a thing). I have no neighbors downstairs...just the basement.

As of this writing, I'd lean toward a powered sub, and most likely one that figures out the crossover stuff on its own, or allows me to turn a knob to send different levels to speakers or to the sub itself...

My system should be easily operated by a chimpanzee after a Patron tequila sunrise...

Onward and upward,
Many thanks,
Puff
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
Down firing vs. side firing has been debated before. I say go for a great sub without regard to its orientation.

For drunk chimpanzee operation, sell the Emotiva DAC and the Toshiba amps, and get a good midrange AVR -- Denon X series or Marantz SR series would be my recommendation. You can kill about twelve birds with one stone that way.

If you'd rather keep your DAC and Toshiba amps, then the Hsu sub I linked earlier would be a good way to go for simplicity.
 
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j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Powered sub or not, you'd still need an external amp with a passive one so you'd be in the same boat :) So yes, you'll want a powered one. For stereo ONLY, I'd get the Outlaw RR2150 rather than an AVR unless you want automatic room correction.
 
B

bushido

Junior Audioholic
I looked at your sub on line...real clothes-stripper, eh? So far out of my price range it's scary.

I am a carpenter...or I was in another life, and also worked for a world-class cabinet maker for some time...would I be better budget-wise to make this thing? With any luck, and can make a square box :cool:
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
Well, maybe. You can get some serious bang for the buck with DIY, but building your own project can still get expensive. If you're seriously considering a DIY project, you ought to start a new thread and get some fresh contributors. When you do, describe the dimensions of your room (HxWxD), your budget, whether you intend to start with a prefab knockdown box or build your own completely from scratch, and whatever else you feel like including.
 
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B

bushido

Junior Audioholic
Well the Toshiba amps, and the speakers are over 30 years old, and before you rip my throat out, trust me, TLS Guy already skewered my speakers (all with good intentions and we have spoken in PM's since). But that said, they are paid for. I bought the DAC mainly to play my ipod on my home system...then came to realize it would also improve the CD player too...and this site seems to really favor Emotiva, so I pulled the trigger, and even $275 is a big stretch for me...which is why they invented Visa.

As far as AVR goes, (I'll have to look up that abbreviation), to further complicate things, I am trying to fill the first floor of my very humble home with room-filling, clean, loud, bassy music. Meaning I would like to be running possibly 4 pairs of speakers in 3 adjoining rooms which are in an open-concept layout... That said, it has been suggested that perhaps a 7.1 AVR would allow me to have at least 2 or 3 zones controlled by that unit, with the potential for adding discrete amps for other speakers...(this is getting into a whole other thread...but so be it).

The only requirement I'd have for this system would be to be able to control the volume of each set of speakers independently...and now, having been convinced a sub or 2, or 3 would be great, to control those too.

I've looked and looked and looked at multi-channel amps, but most have individual room wattage of 30--50 (Sonance, Control 4), which, in my opinion is far less than my vintage Epicure speakers would prefer. At the moment, I have 2 sets of Epicure M202's which have "modules" on 2 adjacent sides consisting of a 8" woofer, and inverted dome tweeter...one set is running with 2 of the amps bridge in BTL suppling 90wpc. Another set of M202's is running off of a third, duplicate amp, and is underpowered. The other set of Epicures is 400's which have said module on all 4 sides, and that set of speakers, which I just spent nearly a week's pay replacing woofers has not found a suitable amp to push them (rated at 200 wpc, and not doing will with an older Sony GX90ES...the amp continues to shut down and go into protect mode when volume gets past 50%)...TLS Guy advised me NOT to run the 400's with the Toshibas in BTL...so I'm looking for an amp that will bring out the best in the big speakers, though even with the 4 6" woofers in each speaker, so far anyway, being very likely underpowered, they are no match for the smaller, 2-sided 202's which, notably, have larger woofers, even though there are only 2 vs 4 per speaker...

What I'm thinking of doing is finding matching, individual amps to drive each set of speakers with built in volume control. I've yet to find a set of 3 or 4, but I've come across Crown's, Sonance, Behringer, Haflers that seem to be fairly common and could be matched from different purchases.

My fingers are tired, sorry for the tome.

Many thanks
Onward and upward,
Puff
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
AVR = Audio / Video Receiver.

So, back to the sub, now that I have a better idea of your budget, here's my recommendation:

closeout Acoustic Audio 12" 400W (maple, also available in cherry and black)
Rolls SX45 from this eBay auction or this vendor

Total = about $270 shipped, plus whatever RCA cables you don't already have in your junk closet. This is the cheapest configuration I can recommend. Anything cheaper, and you might do more harm to your sound than good. But this setup should be a profound improvement. I'm not sure you could build your own sub that cheaply for the cost of a driver and plate amp, even if you had the MDF, veneer, and other miscellaneous hardware on hand already.

Plug the Rolls in between the DAC and the amps. Turn the crossover on the sub up to max and the sub's gain to 9 o'clock, and use the Rolls to dial in the crossover point for the mains and the sub at the same time. 60Hz would be a good place to start. Turn the sub's gain up a little at a time until you can no longer tell by ear where the mains and the sub meet. Profit.

Also, somewhere in there, do the subwoofer crawl, rinse, and repeat.
 
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