Plz Help-Wall Speakers?

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superspeed

Enthusiast
Hello All,
I am a first time poster that have read this forum seeking (and learning) daily for over a year and especially like the opinions of GranteedEV/AcuDefTecGuy/TLSGuy/Mat34/timoteo and chuckieisnuts.
I am in the process of upgrading my current wall mounted L/C/R Paradigm wall mounted speakers. These Paradigm's are a lower level, entry model speaker I purchased about 6 years ago..
The room dimensions are a HUGE challenge!...My system is in a Raised ranch with a up-stairs living room that is open to a set of stairs, dining room, kitchen and hall-way.
The room size is only 14' x 16'. It seem much bigger since it has a "bay window" and the side of the room is open to the staircase.
I have a Panny GT55, Onkyo 809, PS-3, and for the sorround speakers, I have a older pair of really cool, Velodyne mini-monitors that are bracket mounted to the rear wall. My current sub is a Velodyne CT100.
Because this room is so small, at 1 time I had the Velodyne mini-monitors stand mounted and that was taking up to much room. (hard to believe, but true) That is why I went with a wall mounted L/C/R system.
My preferance is 60% movies/ 40% music. Can you suggest a great L/C/R system and sub? Like most 40-somethings', I would like a lot of "slam", "clarity" and extremly high volume sound. Is this even possible in such a small room?....My budget would be $1,000-1,500 for the L/C/R setup and $1,200 for a sub.....I was thinking about the Mythos Tens as a L/C/R (Flanking the Panny) and a SVS 12 sub, but do to work commitments, have a very hard time seeing "demo" systems and there is not much chatter in regards to wall-mounted speakers for some reason?....Believe me, I would love some Aperion Verus Grands, but just don't have the room.
Sorry to be long winded, but I know you guys like as much detail as posible.
Thanks for your help!
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Hi there. Welcome :)

I'm in a similar situation. Small theater room. Forced to use on-wall speakers due to the design I have for my theater with a drop down acoustically transparent front projection screen in my case ;)

First up, you said that your theater space is only 14' x 16' but that it is open to other parts of the house? If that is the case, you must consider the ENTIRE open space as "the room" - at least when it comes to bass and the subwoofer. A subwoofer does not "know" that the "theater area" is only that 14' x 16' area. Anywhere that air can move, the subwoofer will try to pressurize and move that air! So the dining room, the kitchen, the hallway the stairs AND the theater area - you've got to consider it all as one, big room. At least so far as the subwoofer is concerned ;)

The speakers are mostly dependent on how far away you are sitting, but if they are producing bass, again, they will be trying to pressurize the entire open space, not just the designated theater area.

It just so happens that I recently auditioned some Revel on-wall speakers that fall within your desired price range for the front 3 L/C/R. You can read my thoughts on them and some passing comments on the on-wall competition in this thread here

I'll level with you, finding affordable on-wall speakers that perform really well is a very difficult challenge! I listened to the Paradigm and Def Tech offerings and I was not impressed. I completely understand your desire to upgrade your Paradigm Cinema series speakers. Based on what I heard, I would want an upgrade too! But based on what I heard from the Def Tech on-walls, they ain't it!

While I ultimately decided not to keep the Revel M10 and C10 on-walls, I maintain that they are the best affordable on-walls that I've heard. But again, gotta level with you. Playing loud is not their strength. You can't really expect loud output capabilities from four 3" drivers with light-weight magnets. They also won't fill your large, open space with their very limited bass either. While they hand off the bass duties at a relatively high 110Hz cross-over point to the subwoofer, there's still the 200Hz to 100Hz range of the upper bass to consider, and the four little 3" drivers just aren't going to be able to pressurize that open space of yours. If it were an enclosed 14' x 16 room, closer to my enclosed 12' x 15' theater, then I'd say they're alright. But in a large, open space? No way. They will definitely run out of output.

The problem is, I haven't been able to find anything better at a similar price point! I'm on my way to some Focal IW1002 or IW1002Be speakers with the additional frame that turns the in-wall design into an on-wall design, but you're looking at over $1000 per speaker for the IW1002 and around $1500 per speaker for the Beryllium tweeter IW1002Be version. On top of that, those are still just a two-way, two-driver speaker with a single 6.5" mid-range/bass driver that would struggle to pressurize your open space in the upper and mid bass regions.

I can offer up the excellent Focal IW1003Be and Paradigm Signature W5 on-wall speakers. They have superb sound quality and enough output to properly handle your open space. But you're also looking at around $2500 and $3000 PER SPEAKER, respectively with those models. I hardly think your budget is going to grow that much for this purchase. Mine certainly can't :p

So it's very tough. I can tell you that if your Paradigm Cinema speakers aren't doing it for you, I wouldn't expect the Def Tech on-walls to do it for you either. Honestly, I'd say to maybe give the Revel M10 and C10 a shot. They might be ok for you. They are certainly the best affordable on-walls that I have heard and the only affordable on-walls I have heard that offer a seemless front soundstage and any sort of soundstage depth with good imaging. The C10 center is a champ when mounted on the wall. But yeah, when you say you want loud output levels, I'm just not confident the M10 and C10 are going to cut it for you on that front.

On the subwoofer side, like I said, if you want loud output, you've got to pressurize the entire open space. So that's going to call for a high output sub. The easy recommendations are the Rythmik FV15HP, the SVSound PB or PC12-Plus or the HSU VTF-15H. That's basically the run down in order of highest price and highest output from highest to lowest right there. The FV15HP is a BEAST if you can afford it. The PB or PC12-Plus is no slouch and a very close second. And the VTF-15H is the least expensive and a tremendous value when you need oodles of output. All of them have extended upper bass output up to around 200Hz, so there's no problem crossing any of them over, even at higher than usual frequencies, like the 110Hz cross-over that the Revel on-walls would need.

Trust me, if I find a better on-wall solution that doesn't require AT LEAST double your speaker budget, I'll let you know! But for now, the Revel M10 and C10 on-walls are the best I've met. They can handle your small theater area size. That's not the problem. And their high cross-over to the subwoofers means that the open space is less of a problem since they aren't trying to produce much of any bass. But I'm still a bit concerned about their output capabilities for you and not confident they'd be satisfying. They ARE definitely much better than the Paradigm Cinema and Def Tech on-walls, so if you can try them and return them like I did, I'd say they're worth a try at least. See if they can handle producing the loudness that you desire ;)

Hope that helps!
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Haven't heard 'em for myself, so I don't know how good they are or how loud they play, but the Goldenear SuperSat 50 (scroll down) might be worthy of consideration. The Triton Towers are certainly impressive speakers, so I think there's a good chance the same folded ribbon tweeter and 4.5" midrange drivers in an on-wall speaker will offer up some good performance. At least on paper, they look to be a little larger and capable of more output than the Revel on-walls for right around the same price. The SuperSat50 is very light-weight though, much like the Revels, so again, that points to some pretty dinky magnets powering those drivers.

Worth a shot perhaps though, right? Seems like a potential option anyway :)
 
S

superspeed

Enthusiast
FirstReflection...You totally get what I was saying and asking! Especially about "the room" and all though it is a smaller space, I also feel it is larger because of the various openings to the other rooms.
I will start with the speakers:...If need be, I will go over budget. I mentioned this $ simply because I had no faith that I actually could properly reproduce quality sound and correctly pressure the room. I really thought the Mythos would work out well, and now very glad I am finally asking for advice because that could have been up to a $2,700 disaster! In re: to your suggestion about the subs you mentioned, this is spot on also! Really like the FV15HP and again, the "space issue" is a bigger concern than the $$...I would rather invest the correct amount now, than be regretful in the months to follow. With that said, do you or anyone have experience with the SVS pc12 plus or svs sb13 (sealed)....I am almost sorry to bring up "ported vs sealed" subject, and see the value in both designs for this application.
I really appreciate any and all advice as I finally have a few $$ (both boys are out of the house now) and been able to research and start assembling a system that I can kick back and truly be entertained with.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Happy to help :)

The subwoofer is actually the easy part. There are quite a few really good, reasonably priced subs these days from the likes of Rythmik, SVSound, HSU/Outlaw and others. It's really just a matter of getting the model that has the output capabilities and extension that your room requires.

In a larger room, there's no question that a ported subwoofer is going to be more efficient and less expensive in order to get true 20Hz (or lower) extension with enough output to pressurize your space. With any sealed sub, it is entirely up to the woofer to move the air. It gets no help or amplification from a port or bass radiator. You can still have terrific extension and output from a sealed design, but it has to have absolutely massive amplification and a hell of a driver or drivers. If you look at the dual opposed designs used by Epik, what you'll find are sealed subs that have an EQ boost on the low bass frequencies so that the sealed subs still play flat down to 20Hz. The natural design of a sealed sub that has no additional EQ or filters is to have great output up around 40-50Hz, but to naturally start to roll off with a 12dB/octave slope below that. In other words, down at 20Hz, a sealed sub that does not have a built-in EQ will be 12dB quieter than it is up at 40Hz.

So sealed subs - like the SVSound SB13-Plus - rely on "room gain" to even the frequency response back out. Bass naturally reflects off of walls, ceilings and floors. The bass sort of "bounces around" your room, so the low bass gets amplified by this internal reflection within the room. When the room is larger though, the walls are further away and thus, the strength of the reflections are reduced. Sound waves get weaker the farther they travel, after all ;)

So you get less "room gain" in a larger space and thus, the subwoofer itself needs to be able to maintain a flat frequency response to a lower frequency. Long story short, since movies are a large portion of what you watch and you have a large space due to the theater area being open to other rooms and areas of the house, what you want is a subwoofer that can maintain flat frequency response all the way down to 20Hz on its own - and a ported sub is the most cost effective way to achieve that goal.

Right at 20Hz, the Rythmik FV15HP and SVSound PB or PC12-Plus have almost exactly the same output. SVSound really went for very flat frequency response, so they basically limit the output of the their subs above 20Hz somewhat so that the frequency response remains very flat and linear. Rythmik, on the other hand, lets their subs "off the leash" a little bit more. As a result, that big 15" driver in the FV15HP can produce significantly more output in the "hit you in the chest" tactile region of 40-60Hz than it can right down at 20Hz. The FV15HP can actually get a little louder than even the SVSound PB or PC13-Ultra subs in that region, although the Ultra SVS subs have more 20Hz output and are flatter overall.

This stuff only shows up when you are pushing the subs to their absolute limits though. What you should take away from this is that you absolutely cannot go wrong with either the Rythmik FV15HP or SVSound PB or PC12-Plus or Ultra subs. They can definitely handle your room size, they can play flat right down to 20Hz (and even lower) all on their own, unlike most sealed subs, and they also both have excellent transient response and maintain linear output even as the volume gets higher and higher! They are excellent subs.

Of course, dual subs are almost always preferrable as well since you can use two subs set up in separate positions to garner fewer peaks and nulls and get a bit of extra output as well. For that reason, you shouldn't overlook the option of something like dual HSU VTF-15H subs, since their lower price point might allow you to buy two of them rather than just one. Whether dual subs is right for you depends on a few things. If you only care about one "sweet spot" primary seat, then a single sub with careful placement and a bit of EQ can be entirely satisfying. If you care about multiple seats though, dual or quad subs should be the goal. A lone sub will always have peaks and nulls at certain locations in your room and there's just no escaping them. So a lone sub is not a good choice if you have several seats that you really care about and want to have nice, linear, accurate response at all of those seats. Dual subs - just in and of themselves - are not a guarantee of better response at all of your seats though. You still have to be able to position them correctly, so if space and placement options are very limited, getting dual subs isn't always practical or beneficial. The other thing to know is that having two or even four subs doesn't increase the loudness nearly as much as you might expect. Multiple subs are more about evening out the frequency response throughout the entire room. You now have more sources of bass and that results in far more interaction of the bass waves. All of those bass waves and bass wave reflections interacting is what creates the smoother frequency response, but it also means that everything just sort of gets smoothed out, not louder. You can use two subs to get way louder by stacking them, but then you don't get any of the smoothing effect, so that's not the way we normally use multiple subs. We want the smoothing ;)

Anywho, I don't mean to bad mouth the Paradigm Cinema or Def Tech Mythos speakers. They're not a "disaster" :p But they have the problem I talked about where the center speaker is just an identical L/R speaker turned on its side - and that just doesn't work well at all. I tend to consider the performance of the whole system. Just a pair of L/R Mythos speakers sound pretty good! But when the center doesn't match and has bad off-axis response for anyone who isn't sitting dead center, I just can't get excited about that or be satisfied by it. Axiom has the same problem with their center speakers. I like the on-wall M22 and M3 speakers quite a lot, but their on-wall VP100 and VP150 centers kind of suck, so it's really tough to recommend them for a 60% movies set up.

One potential option that's only a little bit more expensive would be the Jamo THX D 600 speakers - they go for around $600 a piece. The issue I had with these speakers is I didn't get the best soundstage when listening to them. They were quite "flat" with no real soundstage depth. So to me, they weren't the best music speakers. But where they might make a lot of sense for you is that they can really crank out the volume. They are fully THX Ultra 2 certified, so they're designed to play quite loud indeed. And being that they are literally identical across the front three (no change in orientation, just the exact same speaker in all three front positions), pans across the front are perfect and seemless.

So much like the Revel or Goldenear on-walls, if you can audition them and get a full refund on a return, I'd say they're worth a look. I know you're wanting 40% music speakers as well, so the Jamo THX speakers might not quite float your boat. But I only heard them in store. It's possible they're capable of sounding better with music than what I heard. They are definitely capable of the output you will need though, so they have that going for them over, say, the Revels ;)
 

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