Please rec subs that can reproduce clean high bass, clean mid-bass, and clean deep bass as low as intended to be heard in the film, at mid-low volume

William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks. It sounds like chasing the low hz might be beyond what I want to spend right now. However, just for the sake of gaining the knowledge for the future, can you clarify the focus on whether the low HZ spl is enough to shake the couch? I think I've also heard descriptions that you can feel the air moving, it makes your spine tingle or something, maybe not spine but... you feel some sort of energy moving through the room, when the movie is 5-15hz or around that area, that is inaudible and different from the bass at say 30hz. Are those sensations also something you only get at a high enough SPL to shake the couch, or could I still gain that experience from having low hz subs in my room even if I play them below an SPL that would be able to shake the couch?
Can’t say what spl at what frequencies would shake your couch. Room size and construction type(suspended floor vs concrete etc), seating distance, and even the couch type would all
Factor in.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Somewhat curious now what you thought in the first place was so easy about reproducing such ULF, especially with buying such limited subs as you were thinking of....
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Playing significant ULF at low spl just doesn't compute.
Agreed, I hope the OP realizes that infrasonic frequencies have to be really high in SPL just to be sensed at all. Low SPL in very deep bass simply is not audible.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Agreed, I hope the OP realizes that infrasonic frequencies have to be really high in SPL just to be sensed at all. Low SPL in very deep bass simply is not audible.
Yeah been there to an extent when I started chasing ULF until it made sense between my efforts and goals.....goals can be hard to reach in a reasonable fashion yet you can read many claiming to do so when they're far short of my standards for such...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks. It sounds like chasing the low hz might be beyond what I want to spend right now. However, just for the sake of gaining the knowledge for the future, can you clarify the focus on whether the low HZ spl is enough to shake the couch? I think I've also heard descriptions that you can feel the air moving, it makes your spine tingle or something, maybe not spine but... you feel some sort of energy moving through the room, when the movie is 5-15hz or around that area, that is inaudible and different from the bass at say 30hz. Are those sensations also something you only get at a high enough SPL to shake the couch, or could I still gain that experience from having low hz subs in my room even if I play them below an SPL that would be able to shake the couch?
It is all about how a speaker couples to the room. I don't even use subs in the usual sense, although the speakers do have a bass section. Yes, my speakers shake the floor and chairs with organ music even at normal volume levels. I use a total of four 10" drivers with 20 Hz Fs in two TL lines and there is 150 watts pf power available to each driver, but the amps never even break a sweat. When the grandchildren watch movies it shakes the furniture downstairs. It is all about physics and good execution.

One last point there is absolutely no point in pursuing response below 20 Hz. I personally don't divide bass into mid bass and other nonsense. 20 to 400 Hz is bass, 400 to 3,500 Hz is the mid range, and above that is HF.

If you play a speaker to 400 Hz with a sharp low pass filter people universally recognize that as bass. There is a lot of power in that range. When you see a speaker with crossover below 400 Hz with one or two small drivers, then run in the other direction fast, as that speaker will have a poor power band response.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
I'm more into the tactile transducers definition myself....but probably wouldn't recognize "TA" except for another unrelated subject :)
Haha! That’s a worthy unrelated subject, imo…lol
I’d usually say TR device but MA is also common. Still, I’m a real fan of the BOSS, or hover BOSS or HEZE or whatever variants they’ve come up with. My couch is a hover BOSS. I removed the feet and replaced them with Hudson isolators, mounted a single 12” JBL driver and surrounded it with a MB inner tube. Then placed four Hudson ISO’s around that. The couch is solid to sit on, but also floats and the single JBL shakes the hell out of it! I’m going to add a second one just to even out the TR.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Haha! That’s a worthy unrelated subject, imo…lol
I’d usually say TR device but MA is also common. Still, I’m a real fan of the BOSS, or hover BOSS or HEZE or whatever variants they’ve come up with. My couch is a hover BOSS. I removed the feet and replaced them with Hudson isolators, mounted a single 12” JBL driver and surrounded it with a MB inner tube. Then placed four Hudson ISO’s around that. The couch is solid to sit on, but also floats and the single JBL shakes the hell out of it! I’m going to add a second one just to even out the TR.
To use your usual words Fukkkk that acronym letter salad! :) I have a Clark Synthesis unit I installed in my couch, and while not it's most capable offering, can definitely add a bit of tactile info at low volumes....
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
To use your usual words Fukkkk that acronym letter salad! :) I have a Clark Synthesis unit I installed in my couch, and while not it's most capable offering, can definitely add a bit of tactile info at low volumes....
Lol! Fukkin right…

FWIW, I’ve read good things about the Clark units. IME it seems crowsons at the top, and Clarke and BK are tied for second. BK’s seem to bottom out first though and can rattle when pushed. The thing I love about BOSS is that the TR is provided via subwoofer drivers so it feels more natural. By that I mean it feels more like a huge sub is shaking your couch, than a buzzer attached to it. That’s also not to say that Clarkes and such aren’t effective. Just that the boss is different. Hell, there’s even guys that have BK’s and crowsons attached to their damn boss risers lol. Nukkin futz…
My subs are good to mid teens so my couch is only active from about 5hz to maybe 16hz with a 24db slope. That’s via minidsp XO and shelf and “feel”. I have the vibesense app, but haven’t tested it on the couch yet.
As much as I love TR and such, I’m not of fan of overcooked bass. Just naturally smooth and appropriate.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Thanks. It sounds like chasing the low hz might be beyond what I want to spend right now. However, just for the sake of gaining the knowledge for the future, can you clarify the focus on whether the low HZ spl is enough to shake the couch? I think I've also heard descriptions that you can feel the air moving, it makes your spine tingle or something, maybe not spine but... you feel some sort of energy moving through the room, when the movie is 5-15hz or around that area, that is inaudible and different from the bass at say 30hz. Are those sensations also something you only get at a high enough SPL to shake the couch, or could I still gain that experience from having low hz subs in my room even if I play them below an SPL that would be able to shake the couch?
The problem is as others have said it takes a lot of power and spl to move air in those low frequencies. In a small room multiple subs some set up nearfield mayyyybe. In your room size not a chance.

That's why I mentioned Rythmik FV25HP they would sound great at moderate volumes in that room but still they won't give you that low digit feel.

I have 2 Rythmik FV18 and 2 RBH SV 1212's nearfield and they sound great at moderate volumes but they still can't pull off below 20 hz without turning it up some. Woofers have to move a LOT of air to hit those low frequencies and that requires turning up the volume some.

Hey this sub might be able to do it if you put it behind your chair :D

 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I bet you that sub could do what your asking for. Only $60,000 dollars and 1hz at lower volumes is good to go! :D
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
As far as hearing loss, I will be using this very regularly so that's a good point, I would always want to play it low enough that even high usage will not cause hearing loss over time. If the ears more sensitive to bass volumes than non-bass volumes, I should learn what volume to keep the bass below to avoid hearing loss. I mean, I would assume with non-bass at least that if it's not uncomfortable to listen to, then it wont cause damage, but if you're suggesting with bass it could feel comfortable, but actually still be bad for your ears over time, then I should look out for that. You may not have meant that is the case though, Im not sure.

Does this suggest that even if I could achieve a sub setup that would be able to accurately play every 1hz - 15hz movie scenes, I still would not want to do it because it's unhealthy or can make people nauseated? Or is that only these specific riot control low hz sounds but not low hz sounds they put in movies?

In general, I want to be very health conscious so I'm glad you brought up these questions. Are there any health risks in general I should be aware of when shopping for subs, that is different than watching TV with normal sound like built in TV speakers, or different even than bedlayer speakers in a surround set up? With those, it would only damage your hearing or make you sick if you blasted it to the point of making your ears uncomfortable. I dont know if bass is different or not.

Can you tell me SIB-KISS is?
This image shows the approximate abilities of humans to hear- it shows the required SPL for the frequencies to be heard equally, so higher means it needs to be louder. If you invert the image, it shows that we aren't very sensitive to low and high frequencies, but the midrange is where we need to be most sensitive- evolutionally, there's very little that would require us to hear well at the extremes- speech, dangerous animals, listening for prey and other sounds is more important for our survival.

Anecdotally, WRT nausea- I had a subwoofer in my car back in the '80-s and one night, someone asked me to turn the bass down because he was becoming queasy.

1664621707628.png


This shows the allowed noise exposure, from OSHA. If you look at this and compare it to the levels people say they want in their home theaters, you'll see that they're risking their hearing.
1664621767131.png


SIB-KISS is what our professors told us when we had a difficult problem to solve in various classes- it means 'See It Big- Keep It Simple, Stupid'. It's basically their way of telling is to avoid over-thinking the problem. There's a time for looking at the fundamental problem and a time for deep analysis.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
Playing significant ULF at low spl just doesn't compute.
I don't know how many car audio contest systems are tuned for what could be considered 'great sound', mainly because they tend to want extreme SLP and that's caused by a ridiculous bass imbalance, but it would be a good way to hear deep bass without high SPL if they'll let you. If it's there, it's there, even at low SPL. Imagine hearing the rumble of a train form a distance- it's not very loud, but you definitely hear it.

Being bombarded by loud is hearing but at lower levels, it requires actual listening and it's amazing hoe well some systems do at low SPL, compared to others WRT the sonic details. I have posted previously about going to an audio shop run by someone I know- he was setting up some equipment while music was playing and it was pretty quiet. I listened and moved around in the room, listening to the details in the music and after a few minutes, I asked if many people comment on this- he said they do and most are amazed because so much emphasis has been placed on SPL (like the Maxell ad with the guy whose hair was blown back, as well as the things moving backward on the table next to him). Anyone can build a loud system, but it's more difficult to build one that has great detail at lower levels and it also prevents the need for major acoustical treatment.

Have you ever finished watching video (movies, TV, concerts) or going to where a band is playing and left with your ears feeling 'tired'? That's not a good thing and it can happen without the SPL being extremely high, but that's generally going to happen when it's loud.
 
K

kpn

Enthusiast
For HT and music. 80% HT usage, 20% music.

My HT room is half open to another room, i.e. L-shaped. The main portion of the HT is about 1900 cubic feet and the remaining portion of the L is another 1,100 cubic feet for a total of 3000 cubic feet. But there's a lot of stuff in the other part of the L space, so if you subtract the furniture it's probably more like 1,650 cubic feet in the main room and 750 in the remaining part of the L, 2,400 or 2,500 cubic feet total instead of 3,000 cubic feet. There are black velvet curtains separating the main HT part of the L from the other part. It is a room on the bottom floor of a four story house, but it is an old house with zero insulation in ceilings or and at least two of the walls, while the wall behind the projector screen, behind the sheetrock wall with 3.5 inch wood studs, is multiple yards of concrete, and I'm unsure about the last wall. I can treat with bass traps and acoustic absorption on pretty much any of the walls, and maybe the ceilings depending what is required for installation, but there is nothing but air and curtains to put anything in the opening to the L room.

Let's assume cost isn't an issue and we're just talking about what would be the ideal size for that shape and size of room. My goal for the bass I want is, considering I will not be able to play it at high volumes most of the time, that I want a sub that performs well from the lowest LFE you're supposed to hear in movies (not the stuff you're not supposed to hear) to the highest bass you want the sub(s) doing, and that the sub can do this at low and mid volumes not just high volumes. I don't know if there are subwoofers that can play low hz sounds at low volume or if they can need to be cranked up to high volume to create enough air for 5Hz and 10Hz, or how exactly that works.

Someone recommend two of this sub, https://www.audioholics.com/surements%20and%20analysis. He told me that bass needs to proliferate before it sounds good and that's why a sub with 12" drivers is a goldilocks type of size for a 20-21 foot long room like mine because the subs can be set up to face the front wall and then reflect back to the seat, for a total spread about of 30 feet or more before the bass waves reach my ears, whereas the bass waves are longer on larger drivers requiring even more room to proliferate. He said he really likes 12 inch drivers as a size and would recommend them over larger sizes. Other people have told me he has no idea what he's talking about. This guy was someone who has no home theater experience, no audio engineering degree or anything, but has decades of experience setting up subwoofers for indoor concerts and proms in small rooms, as well as for video presentations of various kinds. He has looked at subwoofer setups in rooms larger than mine.

He seemed to think the idea that the HSU could be too small was laughable, but I know some movies go below 18hz for LFE and the HSU can't seem to do that without distortion although maybe only louder than I need, I'm not clear on that. I also read that some movies have LFE on the audio track that is not actually meant to eb heard (or felt), that it got left on by mistake by the sound engineer who did not have subs that could go low enough to know it was there, or something, and that some low LFE can be unhealthy to listen to and put your body on edge. I would just want my subs to know to play the good LFE, not the unhealthy LFE, so I don't know how that would work either, or if there is any solution to that other than choosing to either get all the LFE, even the unwanted, or get none of it, without a middle ground. Since I don't know that or the other aspects of this, I joined audioholics to ask the folks who do. Thanks!
I've been following your thread, which is largely way over my head as far as the technical details go. In doing some research on SVS subs, saw this intro vid and seemed as if this CEO guy was responding directly to your post (in a very basic way). Thought I'd pass along.

 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I don't know how many car audio contest systems are tuned for what could be considered 'great sound', mainly because they tend to want extreme SLP and that's caused by a ridiculous bass imbalance, but it would be a good way to hear deep bass without high SPL if they'll let you. If it's there, it's there, even at low SPL. Imagine hearing the rumble of a train form a distance- it's not very loud, but you definitely hear it.

Being bombarded by loud is hearing but at lower levels, it requires actual listening and it's amazing hoe well some systems do at low SPL, compared to others WRT the sonic details. I have posted previously about going to an audio shop run by someone I know- he was setting up some equipment while music was playing and it was pretty quiet. I listened and moved around in the room, listening to the details in the music and after a few minutes, I asked if many people comment on this- he said they do and most are amazed because so much emphasis has been placed on SPL (like the Maxell ad with the guy whose hair was blown back, as well as the things moving backward on the table next to him). Anyone can build a loud system, but it's more difficult to build one that has great detail at lower levels and it also prevents the need for major acoustical treatment.

Have you ever finished watching video (movies, TV, concerts) or going to where a band is playing and left with your ears feeling 'tired'? That's not a good thing and it can happen without the SPL being extremely high, but that's generally going to happen when it's loud.
Car contests aren't based on ULF, tho. I suppose you could turn the sub up much higher than the rest of the speakers to hear the production of the sub more clearly, but it'd have to be quite an imbalance to appreciate ULF....
 
S

Speakernewb100

Enthusiast
Being bombarded by loud is hearing but at lower levels, it requires actual listening and it's amazing hoe well some systems do at low SPL, compared to others WRT the sonic details.
When I am comparing subs online, is there any spec I can look at in particular that is going to tell me what sub can perform clear and detailed and perfect at low volumes, and what subs can't? I mean they have spec sheets that tell you which ones can play at 20hz at 100spl, which ones can go down to 15hz, etc, but what am I supposed to look at just on these sites that's going to tell me this one is detailed at low spl and this one isn't? Or are all the top brands people bring up here going to do equally well at that, outside of maybe the sealed vs ported trade off? All the sealed top brands people mention here will be equally clear and detailed by sealed standards at low SPL at similar sizes and costs? All the top ported brands people mention here will be equally clear and detailed by ported standards at low SPLs at similar sizes and costs? Or are some brands or models known for that, some not? Some drivers do well at that that the top brands use, and some drivers are poor at that but perform more detailed at high volumes than the other brand?
Have you ever finished watching video (movies, TV, concerts) or going to where a band is playing and left with your ears feeling 'tired'? That's not a good thing and it can happen without the SPL being extremely high
The same type of question, but am I at risk of this happening if I buy one brand vs another? How will I know which of the top models have this problem and which dont, or do they all not, only crappy cheaper subs? I know the room also plays a huge role but I cant change my room for better or worse, and there's no way to know ahead of time, so that's why the question is focusing on the subs.
 
S

Speakernewb100

Enthusiast
Thanks everyone for all the more posts answering my questions, and it's great to see the discussion in general. Feel free to respond to each other and discuss and I can learn by reading from the sidelines too.

This image shows the approximate abilities of humans to hear- it shows the required SPL for the frequencies to be heard equally, so higher means it needs to be louder. If you invert the image, it shows that we aren't very sensitive to low and high frequencies, but the midrange is where we need to be most sensitive- evolutionally, there's very little that would require us to hear well at the extremes- speech, dangerous animals, listening for prey and other sounds is more important for our survival.

Anecdotally, WRT nausea- I had a subwoofer in my car back in the '80-s and one night, someone asked me to turn the bass down because he was becoming queasy.

View attachment 57964

This shows the allowed noise exposure, from OSHA. If you look at this and compare it to the levels people say they want in their home theaters, you'll see that they're risking their hearing.
View attachment 57965

SIB-KISS is what our professors told us when we had a difficult problem to solve in various classes- it means 'See It Big- Keep It Simple, Stupid'. It's basically their way of telling is to avoid over-thinking the problem. There's a time for looking at the fundamental problem and a time for deep analysis.
Great info thanks. Hopefully under those numbers will be what I like, but either way for my hearing I'll plan to keep things below those levels. I wonder if it is hz dependent too. Would 100hz sounds for 4 hours be safe for your hearing above 95 db like it says on the chart, but 10hz sounds for 4 hours, even if you cant hear them, would be unsafe for your hearing even below 95 db? It sounds like I wont be chasing ultra low frequencies anyway, but if I had, I had wanted to know if they have more health risks compared to 50hz or 100hz etc.
 

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