PLEASE HELP!! Newbie sub-wiring question...

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Phoenix Aura

Audiophyte
I'm stressin' myself out trying to figure out the best way to properly wire some new equipment ("new" as in I just got my hands on it!).

Someone was giving away the following in a building a contractor friend of mine was working in:

2 x KLA-9 speakers
1 x Energy ES-12 powered sub


Up until now, my home entertainment system, including my PC and digital cable have run off of a cheap but solid:

Pioneer SX-316 Multi-channel Receiver

Obviously, now that I have the new KLA speakers and powered sub, I would like to interface it with my Pioneer receiver, to replace cheap default speakers and sub that came included with the receiver.

For reference, and to help you help me, here is the manual and layout of the Energy sub:

(it won't let me post a link until I have 5 posts... I'll post it once I have the appropriate post cost. Simply google Energy ES-12 to find the manual).

Thus far, this is what I've done:

1. Connected the left and right speaker-out(s) from my Pioneer to the appropriate left and right high-level input(s) on the Energy ES-12 sub.

2. Connected the left and right high-level out(s) from the Energy ES-12 sub to the appropriate KLA-9 left and right speakers, now situated to the left and right of my LCD TV.

3 THIS IS WHERE I'M STUCK...

The sub, as you can see from the manual requires and RCA-IN! The Pioneer receiver only offers a basic red/black standard speaker connection for its sub-out. So, I guess my question is... can I simply purchase an RCA-to-red/black speaker wire to interface the two devices, or is there something else I need to do before hand. I just want to ensure that I don't damage anything by feeding something into the Energy ES-12 sub that it might not like. I was so lucky to be simply given this stuff, and I don't want to damage it by doing something completely stupid.

All in all, I guess I'm simply asking you experts here to guide me as to the most beneficial wiring setup. If I have done something wrong already, please advise, and point me in the right direction.

Sorry for the extended detail, but it saves you guys from having to reconfirm my setup and equipment details.

Thanks in advance.

Paul
 
B

BrawlingBigJim

Junior Audioholic
Are you using your old Pioneer for sentimental reasons? If not, it seems to me that you would be better off picking up a new receiver with a pre-out for your sub. You can pick up a basic 5.1 receiver fairly cheap. Or, spend a few more bucks and ready yourself for any future upgrades to your system.
 
P

Phoenix Aura

Audiophyte
The Pioneer is 5.1! Unless I'm upgrading purely to gain more wattage, or move to 7.1 channel sound, there's really no point. The Pioneer also provides two digital-in interfaces:

Optical-In -- Interfaced to my PC
RCA-Digital -- Interfaced to nothing at the moment

I'm actually pretty happy with it. For all the 2.1 stero sound, the Dolby Pro Logic converts it nicely to simulated 5.1 channel. And, for my PC, which will soon boast a Dolby-encoder card, I'll be able to take full advantage of 5.1 channel for games and movies. Currently, it's simply running in 2.1 channel non-encoded mode.

haha... an as for spending a bit more... money is tight right now friend. :(

I just incorporated my network consulting business, and I'm still paying a hefty mortgage. Once I have a bit of cashflow, I'll be able to splurge a bit. Until then, whatever I have at the moment will have to suffice.
 
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Phoenix Aura

Audiophyte
I noticed this referenced somewhere on another forum. lol... I would post the link, but I'm still no allowed: "the single rca input (although not always the case) is usually a giveaway that it is a powered sub. High level or speaker inputs are usually 1-2 pairs and another set of speaker outputs to connect to mid-hi frequency drivers.
You can use the left channel of the stereo receiver line output to connect to the powered sub."

Is the above accurate information? Is this the most ideal method of wiring my current equipment? And, even if this is the best way, it still means that I require an "RCA-to-red/black speaker-wire" adapter, in order to interface the left-output channel of my receiver to the sub-in RCA-connector on my new sub. :(
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I noticed this referenced somewhere on another forum. lol... I would post the link, but I'm still no allowed: "the single rca input (although not always the case) is usually a giveaway that it is a powered sub. High level or speaker inputs are usually 1-2 pairs and another set of speaker outputs to connect to mid-hi frequency drivers.
You can use the left channel of the stereo receiver line output to connect to the powered sub."

Is the above accurate information? Is this the most ideal method of wiring my current equipment? And, even if this is the best way, it still means that I require an "RCA-to-red/black speaker-wire" adapter, in order to interface the left-output channel of my receiver to the sub-in RCA-connector on my new sub. :(
You are confused.

The sub requires a line level LFE input. Yes, the sub is powered. It is not a good idea to wire it from a speaker output.

If your receiver does not have a line level LFE out, then you will have to use a line level pre out, In that case you will only get the bass from one channel, but that will be the best you can do. It will be RCA to RCA. If you have neither a line level Sub out or line level pre outs on your receiver, than you can not use that receiver with that sub.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
The Pioneer is 5.1! Unless I'm upgrading purely to gain more wattage, or move to 7.1 channel sound, there's really no point. The Pioneer also provides two digital-in interfaces:

Optical-In -- Interfaced to my PC
RCA-Digital -- Interfaced to nothing at the moment

I'm actually pretty happy with it. For all the 2.1 stero sound, the Dolby Pro Logic converts it nicely to simulated 5.1 channel. And, for my PC, which will soon boast a Dolby-encoder card, I'll be able to take full advantage of 5.1 channel for games and movies. Currently, it's simply running in 2.1 channel non-encoded mode.

haha... an as for spending a bit more... money is tight right now friend. :(

I just incorporated my network consulting business, and I'm still paying a hefty mortgage. Once I have a bit of cashflow, I'll be able to splurge a bit. Until then, whatever I have at the moment will have to suffice.
Step one: Get a Flickr account at Yahoo

Step two: Take hi-rez photo of the back of the unit and upload it

Step three: Reply to this forum and paste the URL/Link

That receiver has to have a LFE/Sub out on it...
 
P

Phoenix Aura

Audiophyte
Step one: Get a Flickr account at Yahoo

Step two: Take hi-rez photo of the back of the unit and upload it

Step three: Reply to this forum and paste the URL/Link

That receiver has to have a LFE/Sub out on it...

It does have a sub-out, but it is not a line-level RCA-out. Rather, it's a speaker-level sub-out. The Pioneer sub that originally came with the unit is passive. However, before I go feeding a speaker-level channel into the Energy E-12, I want to know for certain that I'm not going to damage the sub.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
There are no guarantees.

It does have a sub-out, but it is not a line-level RCA-out. Rather, it's a speaker-level sub-out. The Pioneer sub that originally came with the unit is passive. However, before I go feeding a speaker-level channel into the Energy E-12, I want to know for certain that I'm not going to damage the sub.
First off, I scoped out the manual on the Energy sub. It's a pretty good sub and offers a lot of setup options to match with virtually any "real" receiver. The sub does not require an RCA input. It's an option to allow flexibility in fitting into a wide variety of sudio systems, but it does have it's limits, and your receiver is beyond its limits.

Your manual : http://www.energy-speakers.com/source/ES-12 and ES-12XL.pdf

Unless you have a line-level (RCA) sub output, you have no way to utilize the sub's line-level inputs.

Now, the bad news. Realize that you have a receiver from a HTIB system, which was made to work with a speaker system designed specifically to work with that, and only that, receiver. Forget about using the sub's line-level inputs with that receiver.

Ergo, the receiver's speaker level subwoofer outputs. The receiver does all the thinking and amplification and sends it's output to a "passive", or non-powered subwoofer. This type of HTIB is the lowest level of HT systems because it doesn't lend itself to upgrading. These particular HTIB receivers don't play well with other subwoofers. The odds are that your main speakers are sent a "filtered" output that withholds all bass and diverts it to the sub.

So, now you want to use a "real" powered subwoofer with all the rights, honors, and priveliges this entails. It ain't gonna happen. To work correctly with your receiver, you need a "passive", or non-powered subwoofer, that most likely reproduces higher frequencies than a normal subwoofer. In actuality, it's more of a "bass box" than a subwoofer.

You might be able connect your receiver's speaker-level sub output to the one of the sub's speaker level inputs (or maybe jumper them together) and, if I were you, I'd stick with that option. Those inputs are made to handle speaker level inputs, which your unit puts out. Crank up the crossover as high as it goes and don't bother connecting your mains to the speaker outputs on the sub. don't be surprised if you lose a some sound in a band of frequencies (the Bose efect) because odds are that passive sub was designed to go up higher than this sub does.

And, if I sound a bit terse, it's because you led us on a wild goose chase. Being in the consulting business, I'm sure you are aware that when a customer doesn't provide all the facts up front, troubleshooting can be hell. But, if you charge for the hour that can be a boon. We offer advice for free here.

That sub can, in fact, accept speaker level inputs with ease, as the link to your manual states. That, and you neglected to mention up-front that your "receiver" had speaker-level sub output, which is very, very rare. Virtually all "real" receivers use line-level subwoofer outputs and that's the assumption we work on, unless told otherwise.
 
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Phoenix Aura

Audiophyte
First off, I scoped out the manual on the Energy sub. It's a pretty good sub and offers a lot of setup options to match with virtually any "real" receiver. The sub does not require an RCA input. It's an option to allow flexibility in fitting into a wide variety of sudio systems, but it does have it's limits, and your receiver is beyond its limits.

Your manual :

Unless you have a line-level (RCA) sub output, you have no way to utilize the sub's line-level inputs.

Now, the bad news. Realize that you have a receiver from a HTIB system, which was made to work with a speaker system designed specifically to work with that, and only that, receiver. Forget about using the sub's line-level inputs with that receiver.

Ergo, the receiver's speaker level subwoofer outputs. The receiver does all the thinking and amplification and sends it's output to a "passive", or non-powered subwoofer. This type of HTIB is the lowest level of HT systems because it doesn't lend itself to upgrading. These particular HTIB receivers don't play well with other subwoofers. The odds are that your main speakers are sent a "filtered" output that withholds all bass and diverts it to the sub.

So, now you want to use a "real" powered subwoofer with all the rights, honors, and priveliges this entails. It ain't gonna happen. To work correctly with your receiver, you need a "passive", or non-powered subwoofer, that most likely reproduces higher frequencies than a normal subwoofer. In actuality, it's more of a "bass box" than a subwoofer.

You might be able connect your receiver's speaker-level sub output to the one of the sub's speaker level inputs (or maybe jumper them together) and, if I were you, I'd stick with that option. Those inputs are made to handle speaker level inputs, which your unit puts out. Crank up the crossover as high as it goes and don't bother connecting your mains to the speaker outputs on the sub. don't be surprised if you lose a some sound in a band of frequencies (the Bose efect) because odds are that passive sub was designed to go up higher than this sub does.

And, if I sound a bit terse, it's because you led us on a wild goose chase. Being in the consulting business, I'm sure you are aware that when a customer doesn't provide all the facts up front, troubleshooting can be hell. But, if you charge for the hour that can be a boon. We offer advice for free here.

That sub can, in fact, accept speaker level inputs with ease, as the link to your manual states. That, and you neglected to mention up-front that your "receiver" had speaker-level sub output, which is very, very rare. Virtually all "real" receivers use line-level subwoofer outputs and that's the assumption we work on, unless told otherwise.
First of all, thank you for all the help. I guess that answers my question. It's too bad... I guess I will be forced to shell out some more money on a receiver for my entertainment center in the living room. :( Any recommendations for a cheap 5.1 HT system that can interface with my sub and can drive the KLA-9 speakers??

Secondly, I apologize for misleading you, but that was not my intent. I specifically provided you with manufacturer names and model numbers. I also reference the sub-manual, so that everyone could see the inputs / outputs for themselves. I'm not quite sure what else I could have given you from the start? As for you assumption that the receiver had a line-level sub-out, how was I supposed to know you would assume as much? I'm a network architect, not an audio expert. Although the two cross at certain points (e.g. HT PCs, PC studio equipment, fibre and copper networks built for audio / video transmission, etc.), I only ever touch "audio-related equipment" when I absolutely have to... ...for instance, setting up my own HT when I purchase / receive new ****. hahaha. So in my defense, it's not my responsibility to assume that all receivers are expected to have a sub-out line-level, especially since the only one I ever purchase did not!!

Anyway, I do appreciate the assistance. If you have any suggestions for a cheap, but decent 5.1 channel audio receiver, point me in the right direction.

Thanks
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Check out Radio Shack and the big box stores for Sherwood receivers. They have true HT receivers starting around $120 or so and I got one for my step-son a few years ago and we have no complaints.

Likewise, Best Buy offers their "Insignia" brand for around that price as well, and that has been garnering some fairly decent reviews, all considering their price, of course.

You may find others on sale as well if you check the Sunday sale flyers. You can generally assume that any receiver sold as a stand-alone unit will be able to utilize your new sub and the speakers, although I don't know anything about those.

Perhaps I jumped the gun by expecting you to know the sub speaker-level sub was an anomaly and fior that, I apologize.
 
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Phoenix Aura

Audiophyte
I live in Toronto, Canada, so I believe BestBuy's options this side of the border may differ.

I've seen Insignia TVs at BestBuy, but I have yet to see receivers.

Either way, I checked out their Canada Day specials, and this is what I found:

For $200 I can purchase this: http://www.yamaha.ca/av/Receivers/HTR6040B.jsp

Is this a pretty decent system for the money?


Or, for $210, I can get this: http://www.yamaha.ca/av/Receivers/HTR6130B.jsp

The HTR6130B looks to be a great deal, especially with the added HDMI interfaces.


Or, if these are crappy, let me know if there is anything you like from the following list (as long as the price does not exceed $300):

http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/subclass.asp?catid=20313&mfr=&logon=&langid=EN&MSCSProfile=3C79F0C7EA3162B21FF208C41AAB815B9EF93A81B6C5FB300AC99F167C5D78C2B5CE8D45653860FC217C2AD84E2DCEBAC7D1773E4285A00CF5930E80BE29C08B9003EF139237736BDFAB6FA7ED17D4944B1A60015C874E7F4AF3A7B48115150CA67FE3A0C2239918E7D1ABCDCDCA2AF6B534D75BF0376979&list=&page=0&sort=3&test_cookie=1


If someone could answer me tonight, that would be great. There's only 2 left on a few of these, and I can make the purchase online the second I have some feedback.
 
B

BrawlingBigJim

Junior Audioholic
So I guess you will have to pick up a new receiver afterall. I also live in Canada and the Yamaha 6130 is probably the best value from what best buy has to offer. It will solve your issues and provide you with some more options in the future for $200, not bad. You might want to get asecond opinion on that as I don't have any personal experience with Yamaha products, but they seem to get fairly good reviews. Cheers
 
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Phoenix Aura

Audiophyte
I ended up going with the Yamaha 6130B... I can't wait to get it home and play around with it. I didn't want to spend money, but considering that I was able to grab it for two bills, I can't complain.
 
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