please help, i'm getting frustrated

R

rx381

Enthusiast
i have been searching google for any info about the basic thing i'm trying to do but i can't find all the info if my life depended on it.

Denon 3805 AV Receiver
Current set-up: 6.1 home theater

GOAL: use the multi-zone for multiple backyard (rock speakers)

Questions:

1. how do i wire it?
2. i know i need an amp to power it so what should i buy?
3. i would like to put a lot (6-8) of rock speakers back there. Is this possible?

I really don't want to go to those AV retail stores that does custom install because they will charge an arm and a leg. I am good enough to follow technical instructions. I think i can do all the wiring if i get some help from you guys. Thanks again.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
i have been searching google for any info about the basic thing i'm trying to do but i can't find all the info if my life depended on it.

Denon 3805 AV Receiver
Current set-up: 6.1 home theater

GOAL: use the multi-zone for multiple backyard (rock speakers)

Questions:

1. how do i wire it?
2. i know i need an amp to power it so what should i buy?
3. i would like to put a lot (6-8) of rock speakers back there. Is this possible?

I really don't want to go to those AV retail stores that does custom install because they will charge an arm and a leg. I am good enough to follow technical instructions. I think i can do all the wiring if i get some help from you guys. Thanks again.
Zone 2 audio out goes to an amplifier like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/AudioSource-AMP3000-Amp-Three-2-Channel-Amplifier-NEW_W0QQitemZ270436505206QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ef7459676&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

The amplifier out goes to four speakers per channel following this wiring:

This should deliver a nice balanced load to all speakers maintaining an 8 ohm load on the amplifier so it doesn't have issues.
 
H

Highbar

Senior Audioholic
Zone 2 audio out goes to an amplifier like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/AudioSource-AMP3000-Amp-Three-2-Channel-Amplifier-NEW_W0QQitemZ270436505206QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ef7459676&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

The amplifier out goes to four speakers per channel following this wiring:

This should deliver a nice balanced load to all speakers maintaining an 8 ohm load on the amplifier so it doesn't have issues.
I was going to say the same thing about wiring 2 pairs of speakers per side in a parallel series config. Just make sure to get 8Ohm speakers to keep the 8Ohm load. In that config the amp will see whatever load the speakers are rated at. So 4Ohm speakers would be seen as 4 and 8Ohm speakers as 8.
 
R

rx381

Enthusiast
what amp should i buy? up to how many backyard speakers can i run on zone 3?
 
H

Highbar

Senior Audioholic
What amp you buy is going to depend on what the budget is, what style you are looking for and what kind of speakers you are looking at and what volume you want them to play at. As for how many speakers, if you use the above diagram that is 4 speakers per channel of the amp, so a 2 channel stereo amp would have 8 speakers in all hooked up.
 
R

rx381

Enthusiast
What amp you buy is going to depend on what the budget is, what style you are looking for and what kind of speakers you are looking at and what volume you want them to play at. As for how many speakers, if you use the above diagram that is 4 speakers per channel of the amp, so a 2 channel stereo amp would have 8 speakers in all hooked up.
i have no idea what speakers to get yet. however, it will be most likely those outdoor rock speakers instead of an outdoor wall or ceiling mounted speakers. i have no idea what volume to play it at but i don't want just an accent music that people hear on hotel elevators nor am i looking for music that is loud enough to turn my backyard into a club. i just want something decent. that is probably hard since decent for most is still debatable. with regards to budget, i hope to not spend more than 500 on the amp if possible without sacrificing quality sound. do you recommend something that is a bit more than the 500? how would you do it if it was you?

additional questions:

1. is there a special speakerwire for outdoors?
2. is there a way for me to control the volume, ipod source, etc... being outside?
3. is there volume control to turn on/off, up/down certain speakers depending on location?
4. is there anything else i'm forgetting in this project?

thanks again for all your help
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
i have no idea what speakers to get yet. however, it will be most likely those outdoor rock speakers instead of an outdoor wall or ceiling mounted speakers. i have no idea what volume to play it at but i don't want just an accent music that people hear on hotel elevators nor am i looking for music that is loud enough to turn my backyard into a club. i just want something decent. that is probably hard since decent for most is still debatable. with regards to budget, i hope to not spend more than 500 on the amp if possible without sacrificing quality sound. do you recommend something that is a bit more than the 500? how would you do it if it was you?
Please see the link I provided in the first post.

There's also a list here of amplifiers under $500 which are going to provide more than enough power...
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/live-sound/live-power-amplifiers

This one should be VERY good:
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product?sku=481587V

1. is there a special speakerwire for outdoors?
Yes, you should use environmentally shielded cable - available here:
www.outdoorspeakerdepot.com

2. is there a way for me to control the volume, ipod source, etc... being outside?
If you hook up to zone 2, not zone 3, of your receiver, you can use an RF remote control to turn things on/off and adjust volume from outside. I would NOT use a volume control outside as it will need to be able to handle a lot of juice if using one of the really nice amplifiers. (400+ watts per channel!).

3. is there volume control to turn on/off, up/down certain speakers depending on location?
No - if you are doing things in stereo as series/parallel, you can't control them independently.

If you WANT independent volume control/amplifiaction, you could go with something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/SONANCE-1250-MKII-AMPLIFIER_W0QQitemZ220480439646QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3355a8855e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

That will allow you to hook up to 12 individual speakers w/50 watts going to each speaker and is a VERY good amplifier. You can individually adjust each and every speaker using that amplifier if you wanted to.

4. is there anything else i'm forgetting in this project?
Not that I can think of. Speakers, wire, amplification, control, sources. That's what you need.
 
R

rx381

Enthusiast
To Mr. BMXTRX,

Thank you for all the info you have shared. I believe i am close to fully knowing everything for the project. I just have a few more questions:

1. Which amp would you recommend? The CROWN or the Sonance? If the Sonance, how much max bid should i go for it to be decently priced?

2. I am currently running 6.1 for my HT, can i still use Zone 2 as oppose to Zone 3 for the purpose of using an RF remote. Do i sacrifice the rear center channel and run 5.1 so i can run zone 2 for the backyard? If that happens, can the RF remote only turn on/off and adjust volume on all speakers at once only?

3. If i buy the CROWN amp, will i be able to use an outdoor volume control for each speaker?

4. If i buy the SONANCE amp, how do i adjust the volume? From inside the house only? Also with this set up, do i spend more on speaker wires (thanks btw for helping me find outdoor speaker wires)? I have to run 8 lines of speaker wires which is 1 line each speaker instead of the diagram you have above?

5. Any type of speakers that i should be looking for? Watts? Ohm? Size? Can i run different types of speakers because i have been looking at Craigslist and Ebay but most decent deals are for just a pair or 2 pairs max. I may have to buy 2 pairs of one brand and 2 pairs of a different brand for value purposes. Will this work?

6. Speakers - somewhat check
Wires - check
amplification - somewhat check
control - do you mean remote control? what should i get? outdoor rated?
sources - denon 3805 but i will most likely use an ipod dock that is 2 feet away from the receiver. how can i change/control ipod for songs from the outside? is there a way?


Thanks again and hopefully i finish this soon. thanks
 
R

rx381

Enthusiast
additional question:

The 3805 currently sitting on the family room against the media niche wall. On the other side of that wall is the conduit pipe where i will be running the speaker wires to the other side of a concrete slab and on to the speakers.

Do i punch a hole on the outside of the house and put a audio plate in there? wouldn't the audio plate be exposed to the elements? what's the better way of doing this.

Sorry for all these questions but i'm very close.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
1. Which amp would you recommend? The CROWN or the Sonance? If the Sonance, how much max bid should i go for it to be decently priced?
The Sonance is actually a better overall amplifier in my opinion. It generally goes for 400 to 500 bucks on eBay, but you will want to keep an eye on it. I have purchased several of these on eBay over the years and 400 to 600 is the general price. New, they are close to $2,000 or more.

2. I am currently running 6.1 for my HT, can i still use Zone 2 as oppose to Zone 3 for the purpose of using an RF remote. Do i sacrifice the rear center channel and run 5.1 so i can run zone 2 for the backyard? If that happens, can the RF remote only turn on/off and adjust volume on all speakers at once only?
You do not sacrifice anything if you are using an external amplifier. The only time the Denon has issues w/zone 2 is if you are trying to use the internal amplifier on the Denon - which you aren't doing.

You would just connect RCA cables from the zone 2 RCA connection on the back of the 3805 to the RCA inputs on the amplifier you get...
http://www.avland.co.uk/denon/avr3805/rearlrg.jpg

3. If i buy the CROWN amp, will i be able to use an outdoor volume control for each speaker?
No, this would not work. Everything is all wired together, so there is no realistic way to do this. The Sonance would be a much better/cleaner solution. Of course, with the Sonance - you wire EACH SPEAKER INDIVIDUALLY! More speaker wire and wiring work, but the final result would allow you to tweak each speaker specifically how you wanted to.

4. If i buy the SONANCE amp, how do i adjust the volume? From inside the house only? Also with this set up, do i spend more on speaker wires (thanks btw for helping me find outdoor speaker wires)? I have to run 8 lines of speaker wires which is 1 line each speaker instead of the diagram you have above?
Yes, as I said above, more speaker wire. You do get the concept. Individual speakers would be set for relative volume to each other on the amplifier itself, but global volume up/down would be set by using a RF remote which would control the receiver zone 2 audio volume up/down as well, it could select your source and control that source while you are outside.

5. Any type of speakers that i should be looking for? Watts? Ohm? Size? Can i run different types of speakers because i have been looking at Craigslist and Ebay but most decent deals are for just a pair or 2 pairs max. I may have to buy 2 pairs of one brand and 2 pairs of a different brand for value purposes. Will this work?
Speakers will generally have an ohm rating, and MOST outdoor speakers are 8ohms. I would stick with 8 ohm speakers, but you can mix brands if you want/need to. Make sure to check the link I gave for other outdoor speakers which you may like. Remember, outdoors, bass disappates very quickly, so larger speakers (8" models) generally will provide a fuller sound than 6.5" models.

6. Speakers - somewhat check
Wires - check
amplification - somewhat check
control - do you mean remote control? what should i get? outdoor rated?
sources - denon 3805 but i will most likely use an ipod dock that is 2 feet away from the receiver. how can i change/control ipod for songs from the outside? is there a way?
Get a RF remote control that you take inside the house when not in use. RF remotes are covered throughout these forums, but generally speaking, you get a RF base station which lives in your home, and the RF remote which you can take 30-50 feet from the base station and it will work. The base station will control any device in your equipment rack which has a standard IR remote control. This typically includes your A/V receiver, your DVD/CD player, and it you get the right iPod dock, that as well.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
additional question:

The 3805 currently sitting on the family room against the media niche wall. On the other side of that wall is the conduit pipe where i will be running the speaker wires to the other side of a concrete slab and on to the speakers.

Do i punch a hole on the outside of the house and put a audio plate in there? wouldn't the audio plate be exposed to the elements? what's the better way of doing this.

Sorry for all these questions but i'm very close.
You do not have any metal exposed outside.

Bring the speaker wires inside to the amplifier through the wall and seal the wall from the elements. Run them all the way to the amplifier from the speaker in a single shot. This is called a home run and is industry standard. Make sure those cables go some place where they won't get cut during normal lawn maintanance, and call Miss Utility if you need to before digging.
 
R

rx381

Enthusiast
You do not have any metal exposed outside.

Bring the speaker wires inside to the amplifier through the wall and seal the wall from the elements. Run them all the way to the amplifier from the speaker in a single shot. This is called a home run and is industry standard. Make sure those cables go some place where they won't get cut during normal lawn maintanance, and call Miss Utility if you need to before digging.
I'm ok with all the instructions and advice you have given so far except for the the post above.

1. i drill a big enough hole from the inside wall clear across to the outside wall of the house which is stucco and then run all 8 speaker wires through. then i have to seal the wall? using what? what about the hole on the wall inside of the house where the equipment is at? do i have to buy any plates?

2. if i win the bid on that sonance, is 50 watts per channel on outdoor rock speakers that are 8 ohms decent? i'm just wondering because i do not what sound level that will create.

I just want to say that you have made it alot easy for me. The instructions and info you have shared to me is something a retail store would have charged me alone just for the info. If i were to buy equipment from them too which i didn't know which one, i would have been broke.

THANK YOU SOOOOOO MUCH for everything. You are the only poster too that took the time to educate and help.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
1. i drill a big enough hole from the inside wall clear across to the outside wall of the house which is stucco and then run all 8 speaker wires through. then i have to seal the wall? using what?
You can hit up your local hardware store and they will have sealants for this that are similar to silicone, except not. I haven't used it, but on my home, and likely on your home, you have points where hose bibs, and cable jacks go in/out of your home, and they use a soft caulk like sealant to fill the hole and to stop heat/cold/bugs from getting in and out of your home. I think the big difference with caulk is that this stuff never really hardens and you can remove it later fairly easily if you need to add more wiring.

what about the hole on the wall inside of the house where the equipment is at? do i have to buy any plates?
Sure, you can, or you don't have to...
I probably would buy plates and do it nice. 8 speakers would mean 8 pairs of binding posts, so that would be buying a couple of these:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10425&cs_id=1042503&p_id=3326&seq=1&format=2

If you wanted to run the speakers straight to the amplifier, you could just go with one of these to keep the look on the wall clean:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=105&cp_id=10425&cs_id=1042505&p_id=4001&seq=1&format=2

2. if i win the bid on that sonance, is 50 watts per channel on outdoor rock speakers that are 8 ohms decent? i'm just wondering because i do not what sound level that will create.
Yes, it will be suprisingly loud. That amplifier is about 100 pounds and is incredibly solid. It will deliver what you need.

EDIT: I wanted to remind you that regardless of whether or not you get binding posts at the wall, you definitely want to use banana plugs to ease your life for connecting/disconnecting the amplifier if you need to. It'll create a much nicer finished product, especially if you have any issues getting to the back of the rack. It'll also create a more solid connection without any frayed wires sticking out.

I recommend these: http://cgi.ebay.com/10pair-Speaker-Banana-Plug-Connector-Plastic-Shell_W0QQitemZ390097011933QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5ad39804dd&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

VERY easy to install (a bit time consuming), and very solid connectivity!
 
Last edited:
R

rx381

Enthusiast
great news!!! i won the bid on that 1250 MKII amp you told me to get. Now i have to find used decent outdoor / rock speakers.

I know that you said i can now run separate outdoor volume controls but when i look at how much they cost, i'm thinking of running 1 volume control per speaker pair.

Is this possible and how do i wire it?

Do you know where i can buy cheaper outdoor volume control?

Any cheap place to buy outdoor speaker wire? They are kind of pricey too.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
You also don't 'need' to get a volume control for each speaker or each speaker pair unless you REALLY want to. If you don't think you wil be adjusting the level of each speaker regularly, but you want to 'balance' the sound of your outdoor system, the amplifier itself has trim knobs on it which will allow you to turn the volume up and down as you would like to. No volume controls at all = money savings!

Plus, you maintain the benefit of being able to fully manage the sound you want, with global volume being controlled by the Denon receiver itself.
 
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