Please critique my setup!

[Trebdp83]

Look more closely. The light is coming from a window in what is supposed to be the living room.

 

[TheRealOC]

I really struggle with this room.

WHAT IS IT?

Is this a room in your basement? I don't see any windows in this room at all. This doesn't seem like a living room to me in any way. It seems FAR more like a home theater space. So, that begs the question: Is this a library? A living room? Or is it a home theater?

If it is intended to be a home theater, then stop calling it a living room. It's a home theater. Then approach it like it is a home theater. The living room gets treated and designed like a living room. A theater gets designed and treated like a theater.

Get the fucking interior decorator the hell out of your home theater. If that interior decorator is your wife, then do it politely.

By all accounts of your photos, this room BEGS for a front projector with an acoustically transparent screen. I absolutely would NOT do ultra short throw if you're in the pre-drywall stages. If I was stuck with a TV, then I would absolutely go with a 85" TV, or a 77" OLED as my display. But, at 10 or 11 feet eyes to screen, I'd do a projector with a 110"-120" diagonal screen.

I just don't know what the plans are for this room other than watching TV and how much of a TV person your wife is. If this room really has a significant other purpose than looking pretty for other interior decorators, then it's a useless room. If the purpose is to watch TV, then make that purpose to watch TV. If the purpose is to be able to read a book, then figure out how a large TV impairs the ability to read a book.

We have a family room in our home. It's got large windows, a fair bit of seating for guests, and a large TV. We have a living room without any TV where my wife reads and the kids play their instruments. Then, in the basement, with no windows, we have a theater with surround sound and a 161" projection screen. Don't build every room to be another family room or living room, it's the most useless thing people can do in their homes. It would be like putting a couch in your bedroom because someone decides it looks better than a bed. It's just the wrong way of doing things.

Hi @BMXTRIX,

Thanks for your comments; I do agree that a dedicated space where you go all-out home theatre would be ideal, but unfortunately that's not an option for us. The interior decorator is indeed my wife, and her input and style are important too (and besides, she also has a decent right hook...). We are trying to find a balance between a functional home theatre setup and a comfortable living room space.

As for the projector, I definitely see the benefits of having an acoustically transparent screen but for the same reasons, we decided to go with a large TV, and we are still working on finding the best size and placement for it.

The room isn't in a basement. It's not super clear from the photos, but there is a window in that room, beside the left side surround speaker (which we're going to cover with black-out blinds) - it's actually the first room on the left as you walk in the front door of the house. It might be clearer in the youtube videos:

Room tour part 3

www.youtube.com

Thanks again for your feedback.

 

[mono-bloc]

We are trying to find a balance between a functional home theatre setup and a comfortable living room space.

So what your saying is this is simply a lounge room that will double as some sort of home theatre. Which it will never be. As wifee one, wants her own way and has no idea about anything. Tell her once she's paid for everything she can have a say. Now I know why I live alone, and the dog doesn't have an opinion

You might just be better off with a big TV and a soundbar. Then her "in-doors" can fill the room with crap, as they always do. Over time..

I have to agree with BMX, Sorry but the guy's correct, Tell me have you priced anything, It might just be time to start as the basic minimum cost for what you describe will be around 20k And for what you propose that's a budget figure. Unless of cause you could be planning on a white van spectacular

 

[Trebdp83]

There is no reason to start in on his wife. I wouldn't spend a fortune in that room but that doesn’t mean it can’t be a perfectly enjoyable space for them.

 

[mono-bloc]

There is no reason to start in on his wife.

I'm not starting on his misses, But we read it all the time where the wife dictates what will be bought and at what price . So the poor bastard works his ar#e off, in an attempt to please while her in-doors sits in her favorite arm chair and contemplates her navel. [ cough.cough ] She has no intention of working, only spending. Is it any wonder the men all die first.
Just remember boy's Woman are a bit like guns, You can always trade in a 45 for a 22.

 

[Trebdp83]

Well, that is the end result for some boys who never grow up. Some silly women think they can change them. But, you get what you get and you’d better be happy about it or you end up in opposite ends of the house. Or, worse, divorce court. If a boy doesn’t grow up and grow any balls to begin with, you can hardly blame the wife for resenting him in the end after growing a pair of her own. While many wives don’t work, many more do these days so their boys can afford their toys.

But, for every bitter ol’ f#%k out there creepin’ out young gals after downing a six pack, there is some smokey ol’ cougar chasing boys sportin’ a six pack. So, I guess that’s progress. Maybe married folk need to treat their spouse like a rare collectable rather than a cheap replaceable. I’m not really a romantic. I just don’t believe in throwing people or money away. Why spend on a divorce attorney what you can spend on yourselves?

 

[TheRealOC]

So, a couple of things

First off, there's not really any disagreement between my wife and I about how we want the room to be (the right hook remark was sort of a joke...) - we really do want a space that looks more like a living room and functions like a home theatre.

Regarding budget...

it's difficult to come up with an exact figure for the entire room since the costs of building a standard living room were always going to be a part of it. But when considering the extra expenses of sound isolation materials, insulation, extra cables for future-proofing the room, and sound treatments, I estimate the difference between what we've spent on this room versus a typical living room to be a low four-figure sum, which I think is reasonable given the overall cost of the house, which is about €300k.

I've looked into getting an 85" TV for about €800, and combining all the speakers I mentioned in my original post would cost less than €5000; this won't be coming out of the mortgage funds. The reason I wanted to pre-plan and pre-wire for all the speakers now is to make it an affordable/sustainable process, rather than having to find the full €5k all at once. In fact, given the size and shape of the room, a great soundbar might be the way to go.

However, I still think (for now) that getting pretty decent in-wall speakers in the right configuration, installing them in the correct spots, and properly dialing in the digital room correction will give a better experience than a soundbar. Plus, I already own a pretty good AVR, so it makes sense to use it. But I'm also realistic about the fact that this room won't be perfect (I know it won't be), and I think my expectations are pretty reasonable.

So right now, I still see the main problems as being the side/rear surrounds, and what to do about the height of that centre channel...

 

[Eppie]

Hi @Eppie

Thanks very much for your feedback; I have made some changes based on your suggestions and would appreciate your thoughts on them!

I marked out the spacings for an 85" TV on the television wall with the center of the TV now about 4 feet above the floor level. I think you're right about the TV size; I was worrying about nothing.

I repositioned the center speaker above the TV, with the bottom of the center speaker now approximately 178 cm (5 ft 10 inches) above the floor level, which is higher than the tweeters of the front left and front right speakers

The front left and front right speakers are now approximately 11 feet apart (same height), and the front subwoofers are about 8 feet apart (same height). I've attached a photograph taken with my phone to illustrate the changes.

Any thoughts much appreciated

View attachment 60833

So everyone agrees that it's not an ideal setup. I thought there might have been more suggestions and less criticism while I was away this weekend. We're not social workers so let's stay on topic.

Depending on the weight of the L+R you might want to have the studs to mount into but don't get them too close to the side walls. 10' to 11' spacing should do. Remember that the subwoofers are in-walls so they have to fit between the studs. You can lower them if there is overlap with the TV. The green tape looks a little square for a 16x9 set so you might want to look up the actual dimensions. While the centre is best tilted down at your seating location, that is something you can do later. You could try mounting flush to the wall above the TV and if you find that the intelligibility of dialogue is better when standing as opposed to being seated, you could remount the centre tilted down towards the couch.

For that size room the general consensus seems to be that the rear speakers are an issue. It helps to look at the owners manual of what AVR you are considering and then seeing what surround modes are supported and work from there. I used the Denon AVR-X3700H as a reference, which is a 9 channel AVR. (I wrote this before I saw that you have an AVR.) With the couch on/near the back wall you are likely better with a 5.4.2 or 5.4.4 setup where the last number is the height layer. The recommended position for side surrounds is either beside or slightly behind your main seating position (90 to 110 degrees measured from the centre) and the same height as your fronts.

The added rear speakers won't do much if they're mounted above your head and firing at the opposite wall. Two in ceiling speakers in that room would probably suffice but if you want 4 height channels the owners manual lists 6 options:

• Front Height & Top Middle
• Front Height & Top Rear
• Front Height & Rear Height
• Top Front & Top Rear
• Top Front & Rear Height
• Top Middle & Rear Height

Where:

• Front Height is mounted at the top of the front wall above the L+R
• Rear Height is mounted at the top of the rear wall (in line with L+R)
• Top Front is in-ceiling in front of you.
• Top Middle is in-ceiling above you.
• Top Rear is in-ceiling behind you.

The front and rear height speakers need to be angled, so you can't use the same surface mounts as the L+R or the same speaker as the side-surround in-walls. You need something like the Arendal Height that I mentioned before. If you don't like angled height speakers, then stick to in-ceiling ATMOS (top). Note that there is only one option above that uses 4 in-ceiling speakers, and that is top front and top rear. If the couch will sit against the back wall, top rears may not be an option and a 5.4.2 setup would be best. You can download the X3700H manual here as an example of what AVRs typically support.

OK, just saw that you have an AVR. You should look at the manual and see what surround modes are supported and factor that into your design. What make and model?

 

[-Jim-]

Working within your parameters, I'd pre-wire for rear surrounds (but probably never install them) as wiring is cheap once you get started. I think an 85 inch TV may be a bit too big in such a small space, but that's just my opinion. I'd pre-angle (tilt) the mounting frame for the inwall center either above or below the TV. This will probably require some custom framing but it's not too hard. Make certain your TV wall bracket can tilt the TV down if you put the speaker below it. I don't see how you can install 4 Atmos Speakers to spec, but if you insist, wire for them but only install the forward 2 to start. Again, with the Subs, pre-wire 4 but start with 2 and go from there.

Good Luck and post more photos as it comes along.

 

[Eppie]

Working within your parameters, I'd pre-wire for rear surrounds (but probably never install them) as wiring is cheap once you get started. I think an 85 inch TV may be a bit too big in such a small space, but that's just my opinion. I'd pre-angle (tilt) the mounting frame for the inwall center either above or below the TV. This will probably require some customer framing but it's not too hard. Make certain your TV wall bracket can tilt the TV down if you put the speaker below it. I don't see how you can install 4 Atmos Speakers to spec, but if you insist, wire for them but only install the forward 2 to start. Again, with the Subs, pre-wire 4 but start with 2 and go from there.

Good Luck and post more photos as it comes along.

What's your general preference for TV height and centre mounting? Would you mount the TV higher with the centre below, or get the TV more eye level with centre above?

 

[-Jim-]

What's your general preference for TV height and centre mounting? Would you mount the TV higher with the centre below, or get the TV more eye level with centre above?

Personally, I only use in-walls when I have to, and even then I've only used them a few times; so I'm not much of an expert on those. My first take would be, what you you want to do with the space below the TV. If there's nothing there, I'd go for under the TV angled up towards the MLP.

As mentioned above, I'd go for conduit if you can afford it and plan to live there for many years to come.

 

[Wardog555]

Use the following angles for the speakers.

Center being 0 degrees. FL FR 30 degrees.
Side surrounds 95-100 degrees. Do not have surrounds in front of the listening position. Rear surrounds 150 degrees. 4 feet off the floor for height. Center speaker below the screen is where most people put it.

Biggest screen that you're prepared to pay.
65 inches is a more average casual experience at 2.6 meter distance. For movie watching you may even want 83 inches or so. Do not go smaller than 77 Inches!
For higher viewing immersion you easily want a projector.

How many atmos speakers? 2 or 4?
The location is different on the two configurations.
If it's two. Around 80 degrees elevation (side view) and 45-55 degrees elevation (behind view) for the spacing of them.
Not required to be in line with the fronts. Most of the time it's between the fronts and center.

For 4 atmos. 45-55 degrees elevation in both ways.(side view and back view)

One popular suggestion for seating distance is 2/3 room distance.

plan the room out first using software like sketchup or even a floor plan and use a protractor to figure out where to place the speakers.

I don't trust in wall subwoofers so good luck with that!
I will also suggest a regular subwoofer.
I also suggest regular bookshelves as they deliver the better sound quality. Is sound quality important here or not?

If you plan carefully and don't let anyone interfere with the placements etc and sitting away from walls. You will be successful in this room!

Best regards. And hope you can take the time to plan it out.

 

[TheRealOC]

What's your general preference for TV height and centre mounting? Would you mount the TV higher with the centre below, or get the TV more eye level with centre above?

Hey @Eppie

To be honest, I don't really have a preferred TV height for the new room. It's a totally new experience for us, as we've only ever used a 35" 1080p TV that came free from our internet provider, which is currently sitting on a low IKEA entertainment unit. We didn't even need a sofa with head support, as the center of the TV is quite low to the ground.

I have come across some suggestions online that state the ideal height for the center of the TV is 3.5 feet above ground level, but after experiencing my brother-in-law's 65" TV, which was mounted four feet above the ground level, I found it to be quite comfortable with a low-backed sofa. But then, I also recently stayed at a hotel with a smaller TV mounted high on the wall, with the center of the TV about 63 inches (5 ft 3 inches) above ground level, and watching it from an armchair without head support was also quite comfortable. (Although that was only for a short time and that TV was clearly meant to be viewed from a bed).

So I'm basically still trying to figure that part out; do you have any recommendations on where to mount them based on your experience? Thanks!

 

[Eppie]

Hey @Eppie

To be honest, I don't really have a preferred TV height for the new room. It's a totally new experience for us, as we've only ever used a 35" 1080p TV that came free from our internet provider, which is currently sitting on a low IKEA entertainment unit. We didn't even need a sofa with head support, as the center of the TV is quite low to the ground.

I have come across some suggestions online that state the ideal height for the center of the TV is 3.5 feet above ground level, but after experiencing my brother-in-law's 65" TV, which was mounted four feet above the ground level, I found it to be quite comfortable with a low-backed sofa. But then, I also recently stayed at a hotel with a smaller TV mounted high on the wall, with the center of the TV about 63 inches (5 ft 3 inches) above ground level, and watching it from an armchair without head support was also quite comfortable. (Although that was only for a short time and that TV was clearly meant to be viewed from a bed).

So I'm basically still trying to figure that part out; do you have any recommendations on where to mount them based on your experience? Thanks!

I would start with checking the height of the L+R, which typically have the speaker at ear level when seated. Then see which centre location gets you closer to the L+R level. I have a console which required the TV to be higher so my centre is below the TV on the console. You have more flexibility with nothing below the TV but if raising the TV up one foot and placing the centre below gets you closer to ear level, then I would go that route. It's less critical when seated further away but given that you're only about 10 feet away from the TV I would try and get it close and angle the centre up or down as needed.

 

[Bucknekked]

I just saw this thread for the first time this morning. I could guess where some of the criticism was going before the posts even arrived. Some people just can't stop themselves. First off, what an interesting project and I wish you the very best of results. As someone with a "square" listening room, I heard all about the horrible nature of it from those who read books on the topic. What people fail to acknowledge (before hurling insults) is that you can remediate and adapt to just about anything and end up with a good result. Maybe not perfect, but really good. I applaud you for shaking off the criticisms that are bound to come anytime one posts a project.

In fact that will be my only contribution : I applaud your efforts and applaud you for trying something. Make that TV as big as you can, get that couch off the back wall, and then look forward to completing the project and getting in some listening. I think the advice that a 5.1 system may be a better fit is good advice, but so it 2.1 for that sized room. Remember, this is a fun project. Like many projects, there's work before there's fun. Try to enjoy that too.

 

[TheRealOC]

What's your general preference for TV height and centre mounting? Would you mount the TV higher with the centre below, or get the TV more eye level with centre above?

@Eppie
Actually got a chance to visit a showroom this morning when I was picking up speaker cable; they had a demo area with a 7.1.4 setup and a 120 inch projector screen, and gave me a better idea of my preferences

First, I don't have any concerns anymore about getting a TV that's too big - I would guess that the room was about standard height, and the centre of the screen must have been at least 4 and a 1/2 feet above the floor level. The sofa was about the same distance from the screen as it is in my room, and I was looking upwards from the seating position, but it felt totally fine (even without a headrest) - so the 85" TV shouldn't be a problem.

Secondly, I noticed that the rear surround speakers in the cinema room were at ear level and were very close behind the listening position (only about 2-3 feet away). The volume coming out of them wasn't as loud as the front speakers and they were mainly used for effects (I don't think they were diffuse; they just look like regular surround speakers to me). So, I don't know if that's as much of a concern anymore either - maybe just move the listening position forward slightly and use rear surrounds?

 

[Eppie]

@Eppie
Actually got a chance to visit a showroom this morning when I was picking up speaker cable; they had a demo area with a 7.1.4 setup and a 120 inch projector screen, and gave me a better idea of my preferences

First, I don't have any concerns anymore about getting a TV that's too big - I would guess that the room was about standard height, and the centre of the screen must have been at least 4 and a 1/2 feet above the floor level. The sofa was about the same distance from the screen as it is in my room, and I was looking upwards from the seating position, but it felt totally fine (even without a headrest) - so the 85" TV shouldn't be a problem.

Secondly, I noticed that the rear surround speakers in the cinema room were at ear level and were very close behind the listening position (only about 2-3 feet away). The volume coming out of them wasn't as loud as the front speakers and they were mainly used for effects (I don't think they were diffuse; they just look like regular surround speakers to me). So, I don't know if that's as much of a concern anymore either - maybe just move the listening position forward slightly and use rear surrounds?

View attachment 60914
View attachment 60915

Did you also sit on the ends of couch closer to one of the rear speakers? The proximity could be fine in the middle position but less so on the ends. I opted to go without rear speakers because my couch is up against the back wall, so the people on the ends would be less than a foot from the speakers. If you can move your couch enough to get the seated positions 2 or 3 feet away from the speakers, then rear surrounds could be feasible. I think members here are taking a more conservative approach because the room is not particularly large and with in-walls you have no option to play with speaker placement. You do have some flexibility in speaker levels. After you run room correction you could adjust the trim levels if you find a particular pair of speakers too hot. I have seen setups here with a couch mid room in an open concept floor space and the rear speakers were on stands directly behind the couch. That's not much different than moving your couch up a foot.

 

[-Jim-]

@TheRealOC, I finally took at the Speakers you said @gene recommended. You stated "For the center speaker, I've assumed that the DALI would be flipped horizontally,"

I think you've got that wrong as I don't see @gene doing that with that design of speaker. You should really confirm that before going any further.

I've also been thinking of your desire for 4 Subs in such a small room. I know some folks are real Bassaholics but really 4?

This afternoon I saw a live feed from SVS on their "new" 3000 In-Wall Subwoofer. Of course they say it's the best thing since sliced bread, and go on to say all of the other in wall products from competitors are "imposters" and not true Subwoofers. But one thing really caught my attention for your application was when the CEO said the 3000 In-Wall Sub was the equivalent output to their SB-2000 Pro, but you pay almost double the price to get the same performance in-wall.

So bear with me here as I spent a long time trying to sort this out. I couldn't find an Audioholics Review of the SB-2000 Pro (Why not @shadyJ ?) But according to the reviews: "The PB-2000 Pro earns our ‘Bassaholics Room’ rating of ‘Large’ meaning that it should be able to handle a room of up to 5,000 cubic feet in size." The "SB-1000 Pro earns a 'Medium Room' rating, indicating it should be adequate for a room of 1,500 cubic feet to 3,000 cubic feet." So I'm guessing the SB-2000 Pro is somewhere in between but approaching more towards the PB-2000 Pro. And that's where you'd expect the 3000 In-Wall to be based on the SVS CEO's comments today.

Your room is less than 1300 square feet. One of the 3000 In-Walls would be more than adequate. You can install them after you finish the drywall if you pre-wire (using regular speaker wire that meets code for in-wall applications as the Sub Amps are with your AVR). If I heard correctly on the video, one amplifier can drive two Sub Boxes (the price goes from $1999 to $2,999 USD) So I suggest you plan for 2 Sub Boxes and if you really want, just wire for 4, as you can add the other 2 later. Another thing you may want to do is call them. They offer free consultation, and will even do Facetime calls so they can be walked through the room and see the install. They are pushing this product through Integrators / Installers but do have some sales through their distributors.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[Eppie]

@TheRealOC, I finally took at the Speakers you said @gene recommended. You stated "For the center speaker, I've assumed that the DALI would be flipped horizontally,"

I think you've got that wrong as I don't see @gene doing that with that design of speaker. You should really confirm that before going any further.

I downloaded the manual for Opticon LCR MK2 and the upper mid-tweeter does rotate 90 degrees.

 

[-Jim-]

I downloaded the manual for Opticon LCR MK2 and the upper mid-tweeter does rotate 90 degrees.

Thanks for the info. I'd like to see a technical review in both the horizontal and vertical positions. Not that I don't believe @gene but I'd just like to know