Plasma + 5900 + DVI:Image Problems!

[Jack]

I have a Panasonsic 42" EDTV attached to a Denon 5900 via DVI. I was expecting the images to be, well, perfect--crystal clear. They aren't. Sometimes I notice fuzziness in large background images like walls or sky. And in some dark scenes I sometimes notice short, flickering, colored, horizontal lines in big dark areas. The problems are more noticible with DVDs from TV shows (HBO--eg The Sopranos).

The other thing that bothers me is that the image using component connections doesn't seem to be significantly different than using DVI, which goes against everything I understand.

I calibrated the Plasma using DVE.

I'm using 480p out of the 5900.

I'm using high quality DVI cable. The length is 3 meters.

Am I just seeing the limits of plasma screens? Are there some other adjustments that I have failed to make?

Any suggestions/thoughts?

Thanks.

 

[Mort Corey]

Have you tried sending the display a 1080i signal and letting it scale back to 480p?

Mort

 

[Jack]

Have you tried sending the display a 1080i signal and letting it scale back to 480p?

Mort

It doesn't help. Based on my limited understanding, I wouldn't have expected it too either. DVDs are outputting 480, so why upconvert and then send it to the monitor to down convert? Also I'm pretty sure that the decoder on the 5900 is better than the one in the monitor.

Thanks, however, for the thought.

 

[docferdie]

The fuzziness you are noticing is the fact that your source signal and monitor do not have 1:1 pixel mapping. Your TV likely has a native resolution of 854x480 while a DVD has a resolution of 720x480. To get a full screen image, scaling has to occur somewhere. Depending on how you have your devices configured you are either sending the TV 720x480 by DVI which the TV then scales to its native resolution or the Denon scales it to 854x480 then sends it through the DVI port. most TVs with DVIs identify the resolution of the signal it is currently displaying so I would start with that. Unfortunately one of the problems of EDTV is that there really is no 16x9 resolution where 480 is the vertical resolution. If you do your calculations it comes out to 853.3x480. Digital monitors only look really good when 1:1 pixel mapping is met and this is usually accomplished by a good scaler either in the TV or the source but with EDTV and 16x9 it is just not feasible. I suggest using a home theater PC through DVI and comparing the results. A perfect example of 1:1 pixel mapping is when you watch Alias on a samsung DLP both content and display have a resolution of 1280x720 which will always look better than any 1080i show downscaled to 720p.

 

[Aliixer]

The fuzziness you are noticing is the fact that your source signal and monitor do not have 1:1 pixel mapping. Your TV likely has a native resolution of 854x480 while a DVD has a resolution of 720x480. To get a full screen image, scaling has to occur somewhere.

With that said!!!!!! what plasma tv would you recomend? HDTV or a suitable EDTV. I too have the EDTV plasma, do we need to upgrade? I would like to use DVI with the new denon 3910 dvd player....please advise?

Can the scaler in the RXZ9 receiver do what you are talking about, the 1:1 pixel mapping. Also does that have anything to do with square pixels verses rectangular ones?

 

[Jack]

Unfortunately one of the problems of EDTV is that there really is no 16x9 resolution where 480 is the vertical resolution. If you do your calculations it comes out to 853.3x480. Digital monitors only look really good when 1:1 pixel mapping is met and this is usually accomplished by a good scaler either in the TV or the source but with EDTV and 16x9 it is just not feasible.

Interesting. I had read on other sites that, if your primary source is DVDs, EDTV actually can do better than HDTVs because there is much more upconverting to be done to get from DVD resolution to the HDTVs resoultion. Given that I am in a place that does not have HD brodcasts, I figured that I did not need to spend the extra money for HDTV since I will be mostly using my system for DVDs and non-HD broadcast TV.

 

[happy540i]

I have a 3910 directly connected via DVI cable to a Panasonic LCD HDTV projection monitor, format is 1080i and I don't have a problem with it. I think it is the limitation of your EDTV.

 

[Unregistered]

The fuzziness you are noticing is the fact that your source signal and monitor do not have 1:1 pixel mapping. ... Unfortunately one of the problems of EDTV is that there really is no 16x9 resolution where 480 is the vertical resolution. If you do your calculations it comes out to 853.3x480. Digital monitors only look really good when 1:1 pixel mapping is met and this is usually accomplished by a good scaler either in the TV or the source but with EDTV and 16x9 it is just not feasible. I suggest using a home theater PC through DVI and comparing the results. A perfect example of 1:1 pixel mapping is when you watch Alias on a samsung DLP both content and display have a resolution of 1280x720 which will always look better than any 1080i show downscaled to 720p.

Another thought. Why is it that with a superbit DVD I do not notice the fuzziness? The superbit has higher quality image encoding but that shouldn't resolve the issue that you mention about the lack of a true 16x9 (and thus 1:1 mapping) on EDTVs.

 

[djoxygen]

Another thought. Why is it that with a superbit DVD I do not notice the fuzziness? The superbit has higher quality image encoding but that shouldn't resolve the issue that you mention about the lack of a true 16x9 (and thus 1:1 mapping) on EDTVs.

If you're seeing it on one DVD but not on another, then you could be seeing MPEG compression artifacts. Superbit releases allocate all data to the picture and sound at the expense of extras, so they will often look much better.

One of the downsides of having a great set is that you get to see the limitations of lesser technologies. Sometimes watching SD DirecTV on my 43" 16:9 CRT RP borders on painful, while the same signal on a 20" tube would probably look just fine.

 

[docferdie]

With that said!!!!!! what plasma tv would you recomend? HDTV or a suitable EDTV. I too have the EDTV plasma, do we need to upgrade? I would like to use DVI with the new denon 3910 dvd player....please advise?

Can the scaler in the RXZ9 receiver do what you are talking about, the 1:1 pixel mapping. Also does that have anything to do with square pixels verses rectangular ones?

I can't really recommend a specific brand as I have not personally tested the DVI inputs of those available on the market. I can however say that I am very satisfied witht the DVI quality of the samsung DLP line. I personally use a home theater PC with an x800 xt via DVI.

Receiver scalers are actually analog upconverters and do nothing but simplify hookups of analog sources. They don't help out when you have a DVI device.

 

[docferdie]

Interesting. I had read on other sites that, if your primary source is DVDs, EDTV actually can do better than HDTVs because there is much more upconverting to be done to get from DVD resolution to the HDTVs resoultion. Given that I am in a place that does not have HD brodcasts, I figured that I did not need to spend the extra money for HDTV since I will be mostly using my system for DVDs and non-HD broadcast TV.

Your mileage will vary depending on the model. A no-name brand HDTV can have a lousy scaler while a name brand EDTV can have an excellent scaler resulting in a better picture.

 

[Jack]

If you're seeing it on one DVD but not on another, then you could be seeing MPEG compression artifacts. ...One of the downsides of having a great set is that you get to see the limitations of lesser technologies. Sometimes watching SD DirecTV on my 43" 16:9 CRT RP borders on painful, while the same signal on a 20" tube would probably look just fine.

Yeah well as I mentioned I've noticed problems on a lot of the made for TV DVDs I have but I haven't quite got to the point of relaxing and blaming it all on the quality of the encoding. That is what is driving me crazy. Is there something I can do with my set up? And now I'm thinking that maybe I should consider swaping my new Panasonic EDTV for the HD version!!

 

[Jack]

Your mileage will vary depending on the model. A no-name brand HDTV can have a lousy scaler while a name brand EDTV can have an excellent scaler resulting in a better picture.

Well I've got a Panasonic plasma EDTV (and it is indeed 845x480) and the Denon 5900 DVD player. I think both units are high quality but I suspect that the scaler in the 5900 is better than the one in the Panny. Still if I understand what you said, the Panny might be doing some conversion. Other than that the 5900 is set to 480p, I don't know if it is sending 720 or 845 to the Panny.

What you've put in my head now is if it would be worth the extra dollars to swap the Panny for their HD version. I only bought the unit a little over a month ago and could do that if I thought it would really make a difference.