Planned 18" DIY Build Q's

[KahunaB14]

I have been enjoying my setup immensely but I found I have been bitten by the bass bug - need more SPL hit for music. Planning a DIY dual 18" sealed build. (potentially ported - depends on the size of the living room in future house...and if I can convince the wife - may have to promise a vacation to someplace warm lol)

I am planning a dual 18" Dayton (either the UM18-22 or the RSS460HO-4) build and have some questions about amplifiers with w/o DSP and using REW and PEQ. I appreciate the help.

My AVR is a Yamaha RX-V681 and it does have a manual PEQ for the LFE channel (4 adjustment points max). (Note - I believe it adjusts both LFE out channels as one - not independently).

1) Would i want to go for an amp with DSP - like the inuke nu3000dsp - or would I be Ok with one without DSP like a used Crown XLS 2500?
Reason I ask - I have a co-worker (major electronica nut) who likes to buy, repair and stockpile crown XLS amps off Ebay. Most of them are like the XLS 1500 which do not have DSP. So I can get a really nice amp for not a lot of coin if I go non-DSP.

2) Would the EQ in the inuke allow independent sub equalization? Will REW give recommended EQ settings for independent sub equalization?

3) I suppose the other wildcard is - what if I get a different receiver down the road with no PEQ - then I would really want an amp with DSP right?

4) If I get a calibrated Mic and use REW - I assume I can get more accuracy vs. using an SPL meter and the PEQ in my Yamaha correct? Or no?

5) Side question for Yammy AVR owners - if I have the mains set to "Large" and the sub to "Use" - WTF is my LFE channel x-over? I know if set fronts to "small" then the x-over for the LFE channel is the same as the x-over set on the fronts. I suppose i can ask Yamaha but they are not super helpful.

My current speakers: Klipsch RF-62II, RC-62II, SVS PB12-NSD x1.

 

[NINaudio]

1) I'd personally be inclined to go with the crowns over the Inukes because they are much quieter.

2-4) REW and a calibrated umik will be able to give you suggested EQ settings for something like a mini-dsp 2x4HD which has two inputs and four outputs. You can eq up to 10 spots with the minidsp hd. I'd go this route over inuke any day. Much more flexibility in how you want to tune. Using REW and a UMIK will give you more accuracy than an spl meter.

 

[fuzz092888]

I have been enjoying my setup immensely but I found I have been bitten by the bass bug - need more SPL hit for music. Planning a DIY dual 18" sealed build. (potentially ported - depends on the size of the living room in future house...and if I can convince the wife - may have to promise a vacation to someplace warm lol)

I am planning a dual 18" Dayton (either the UM18-22 or the RSS460HO-4) build and have some questions about amplifiers with w/o DSP and using REW and PEQ. I appreciate the help.

My AVR is a Yamaha RX-V681 and it does have a manual PEQ for the LFE channel (4 adjustment points max). (Note - I believe it adjusts both LFE out channels as one - not independently).

1) Would i want to go for an amp with DSP - like the inuke nu3000dsp - or would I be Ok with one without DSP like a used Crown XLS 2500?
Reason I ask - I have a co-worker (major electronica nut) who likes to buy, repair and stockpile crown XLS amps off Ebay. Most of them are like the XLS 1500 which do not have DSP. So I can get a really nice amp for not a lot of coin if I go non-DSP.

Non DSP amp all the way.

2) Would the EQ in the inuke allow independent sub equalization? Will REW give recommended EQ settings for independent sub equalization?

Again I wouldn't touch an inuke with a 10ft pole.

3) I suppose the other wildcard is - what if I get a different receiver down the road with no PEQ - then I would really want an amp with DSP right?

No.

4) If I get a calibrated Mic and use REW - I assume I can get more accuracy vs. using an SPL meter and the PEQ in my Yamaha correct? Or no?

You would also need a MiniDSP, but IMO the investment in a mic and a miniDSP will more than pay for itself because you'll also be able to keep and use the mic and miniDSP regardless of any amp or receiver changes you make over the years.

5) Side question for Yammy AVR owners - if I have the mains set to "Large" and the sub to "Use" - WTF is my LFE channel x-over? I know if set fronts to "small" then the x-over for the LFE channel is the same as the x-over set on the fronts. I suppose i can ask Yamaha but they are not super helpful.

My current speakers: Klipsch RF-62II, RC-62II, SVS PB12-NSD x1.

The LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel is a separate audio channel that is only for movies and only for the sub. You want the LFE set to the highest possible frequency setting that way you're getting the most out of the LFE channel. The only reason you wouldn't want it set higher is if your sub is incapable of playing those frequencies with accuracy. This is not just for Yamaha AVR's.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have been enjoying my setup immensely but I found I have been bitten by the bass bug - need more SPL hit for music. Planning a DIY dual 18" sealed build. (potentially ported - depends on the size of the living room in future house...and if I can convince the wife - may have to promise a vacation to someplace warm lol)

I am planning a dual 18" Dayton (either the UM18-22 or the RSS460HO-4) build and have some questions about amplifiers with w/o DSP and using REW and PEQ. I appreciate the help.

My AVR is a Yamaha RX-V681 and it does have a manual PEQ for the LFE channel (4 adjustment points max). (Note - I believe it adjusts both LFE out channels as one - not independently).

1) Would i want to go for an amp with DSP - like the inuke nu3000dsp - or would I be Ok with one without DSP like a used Crown XLS 2500?
Reason I ask - I have a co-worker (major electronica nut) who likes to buy, repair and stockpile crown XLS amps off Ebay. Most of them are like the XLS 1500 which do not have DSP. So I can get a really nice amp for not a lot of coin if I go non-DSP.

2) Would the EQ in the inuke allow independent sub equalization? Will REW give recommended EQ settings for independent sub equalization?

3) I suppose the other wildcard is - what if I get a different receiver down the road with no PEQ - then I would really want an amp with DSP right?

4) If I get a calibrated Mic and use REW - I assume I can get more accuracy vs. using an SPL meter and the PEQ in my Yamaha correct? Or no?

5) Side question for Yammy AVR owners - if I have the mains set to "Large" and the sub to "Use" - WTF is my LFE channel x-over? I know if set fronts to "small" then the x-over for the LFE channel is the same as the x-over set on the fronts. I suppose i can ask Yamaha but they are not super helpful.

My current speakers: Klipsch RF-62II, RC-62II, SVS PB12-NSD x1.

For my sealed subs I chose the miniDSP route with Crown XLS amps. Sealed you might get away with the avr's REQ like Audyssey, which I've used without miniDSP and it works decently. YPAO I don't know how well it does subs, but their PEQ is fairly limited last I looked. REW can feed suggested EQ to a Behringer iNuke DSP amp, but I didn't go Behringer due fan noise. Investing in a mic/REW is a good thing in any case, much more useful than an spl meter.

As to that last are you referring to the LPF of LFE? That's not a crossover, simply a limitation on the LFE channel as fuzz mentions. Normal limit of content is 120hz and that's the usual setting. Why do you set your mains to large, tho?

 

[KahunaB14]

Ok so basically what I am hearing is that...

• I don't need an amp with DSP
• I should shy away from inuke and get a used crown from my co-worker
• Using a calibrated mic with REW to dictate EQ settings and execute those settings via on a mini-dsp is the way to go.
• I also gather that the reason the Mini DSP is better than the AVR PEQ is because A) I can control up to 4 subs independently - and B) I can control 10 EQ points for each. (Whereas on the Yammy PEQ I can only control 1 sub channel with 4 EQ points.)

Does that about sum it up? If so - it all makes sense to me.
MUCH THANKS!

As for LFE on the Yammy - here is how it works. There is ONLY 1 crossover for the LFE according to Yamaha customer service. The way they explained it to me - the crossover frequency set for the front speakers dictates the crossover for the LFE. There is no separate control. Thus if I have my fronts set to "small" and I choose 80Hz for the crossover - then my LFE is seeing everything below 80Hz.

However - that doesn't explain 1 thing. I have the ability to have the LFE channel active even with the Fronts set to "Large"...i.e. there is no crossover for the fronts (they see full). Thus begs the question - WTF is the LFE crossover Freq. in that instance?

I do not have Fronts set as Large BTW.

 

[lovinthehd]

Perhaps some confusing of bass redirection and LFE? LFE is normally routed to the sub only. I can't think of any units that have an "LFE crossover". Without a sub your mains may get LFE. I'd have to look thru the manual but I sure as hell wouldn't trust a customer service rep to understand the difference between an LPF and a crossover.

 

[KahunaB14]

I am probably not explaining this correctly - but my main question is this.

If I set my Fronts to "Small" and crossover at 80Hz, and Set subwoofer to "Use" ...I gather that my sub is handling everything below 80Hz, and my mains are handling everything above 80Hz right? (yes I know there is a slope that crosses - not a brick wall)

But lets say I want my Fronts set to "Small" and crossover for them (HPF) set to 80Hz BUT I want the Sub crossover (LPF in the AVR) to be set to 120Hz. How would I do this? There is no crossover settings AT ALL for the LFE/Sub channel that I can find. There is only "Use" or "Don't Use".

I feel like the Denon guys can independently set their sub LPF right?

 

[lovinthehd]

If you set fronts to small, xover to 80 and use sub, yes, you're crossing the signal between speakers and subs with a crossover point of 80hz.

Don't know if your Yamaha (or any Yamahas) has such an LPF of LFE, don't see one from a brief search of the manual. My Denons and Onkyo avrs have such a setting (might be part of Audyssey feature set, not sure).

A crossover is a combination of the HPF for the speakers and a LPF for your sub, when you set it to 80 you're setting both simultaneously (for the slopes to "cross over" at 80hz). LFE/bass redirection aren't the same thing altho they can be combined to an extent. Generally the crossover in an avr isn't going to provide control separately for the LPF/HPF of the crossover.

Here's Yamaha's faq on the subject http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/rx/1071/2537/What_effect_does_the_Speaker_Size_and_LFE-Bass_output_settings_on_my_Yamaha_A-V_Receiver_affect_the_output_sound

 

[KahunaB14]

THanks for the link. It is clear that those settings are out of date with resepct to the receiver i have so it didn't really help but that was sortof off topic for this thread anyway so I should have just started a new thread on that topic.

Back to the 18" build - would the Dayton Reference, or Ultimax 18" be better for mid bass in a sealed enclosure assuming I am driving each at say ~800 wrms? I assume the Ultimax has the nod at lowest output frequencies correct?

 

[lovinthehd]

THanks for the link. It is clear that those settings are out of date with resepct to the receiver i have so it didn't really help but that was sortof off topic for this thread anyway so I should have just started a new thread on that topic.

Back to the 18" build - would the Dayton Reference, or Ultimax 18" be better for mid bass in a sealed enclosure assuming I am driving each at say ~800 wrms? I assume the Ultimax has the nod at lowest output frequencies correct?

The faq thing from Yamaha is 6 years old so sure could be some differences there, just saw it when looking around for Yamaha and LPF/LFE info. Yamaha uses some different terminology at times than others do, too, let alone model changes.

I think you're still looking for something that doesn't exist in that regard. The LFE is the .1 channel in a recording that has such, and adjustment of the LPF for LFE only affects such recordings. Otherwise you are dealing with redirected bass to the sub via using bass management (setting speaker to small) and the crossover. LFE and bass redirection to a sub aren't the same thing. I think I read about an older Lexicon pre-pro unit that had adjustments separately for the LPF and HPFs but I don't think any current mainstream avr offers this.

Did you model the particular drivers you're interested in? I saw your comments about wanting punch in the chest type response (for Skrillex and other modern electronic music IIRC) and wonder what speakers you have now and at what volume levels you expect to get this kind of thump at....

 

[KahunaB14]

Hmm - ok well I probably just don't understand how AVRs work I'm pretty new to this. I was just seeking a way to have my sub channel active from ~120Hz on down (since its suppose to be good to go up to 200Hz) and have my mains active from ~80Hz on up so I increase the "mid bass" response between ~60Hz to 100Hz for Music listening.

I don't know how to model speakers yet - though I could probably learn.

I have Klipsch RF-62II and RC-62II at the moment along with the single PB12-NSD. No rear yet. I would like to get more kick drum thump. I expect to "feel" the thump at -20 db on up for songs that have it in the recording. Not sure if that is realistic or not. My plan is to go with bigger dual subs in the not too distant future to see if that helps. Though my wife is not warming to the idea of more/bigger speakers until I buy us a bigger house, and she wants a baby first. So...

 

[lovinthehd]

....so you may not get too far with the WAF/baby/house thing

You need more than an avr's dsp to do what you want. Mostly I think what you need is just higher spl to get that sensation you're seeking. You could also just try a higher crossover and see if the subs provide more than your speakers at that range. Higher crossover may yield more sub localization, might not, especially with multiple subs.

 

[fuzz092888]

Hmm - ok well I probably just don't understand how AVRs work I'm pretty new to this. I was just seeking a way to have my sub channel active from ~120Hz on down (since its suppose to be good to go up to 200Hz) and have my mains active from ~80Hz on up so I increase the "mid bass" response between ~60Hz to 100Hz for Music listening.

I don't know how to model speakers yet - though I could probably learn.

I have Klipsch RF-62II and RC-62II at the moment along with the single PB12-NSD. No rear yet. I would like to get more kick drum thump. I expect to "feel" the thump at -20 db on up for songs that have it in the recording. Not sure if that is realistic or not. My plan is to go with bigger dual subs in the not too distant future to see if that helps. Though my wife is not warming to the idea of more/bigger speakers until I buy us a bigger house, and she wants a baby first. So...

You would need a custom crossover for this or to add a miniDSP and boost the sub up at those frequencies. My guess would be you'd have to set the crossover on the yamaha to 80Hz and then use the miniDSP to boost sub.

However, I think you'd be better off just changing your crossover to 100-110Hz when you're playing music and then boosting the sub level up to a level that gets you the kick you're looking for.

If you lived near me I'd sell you a pair of 18's that would definitely get you what you're looking for