Placebo effect = power of suggestion

[Swerd]

The role of the power of suggestion is often misunderstood or ignored when it comes to interpreting the validity of direct sensory observations. We often hear how this can affect listeners of high-priced audio equiptment, and often argue over its importance. In reality, it is possible for any of the senses to be indirectly influenced this way. Advertizers, salesmen, psychologists, lawyers, con men, and a few speaker wire manufacturers have all been aware of this for a long time.

Science is getting better at showing how genuinely real this phenomenon is. A news report of a recent publication describes how sense of smell can be influenced and even fooled by prior verbal suggestion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/18/health/webmd/main696215_page2.shtml

Even highly motivated audiophiles can't deny that the same could happen when they attribute improved audio performance to dubious tweaks.

The article, in the journal Neuron, is not yet available online; when it is, I will download a copy and forward it to anyone who wants it.

 

[sts9fan]

if it was not for the placebo effect there would be FAR less hifi companies

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

How long until loudspeakers are sprayed with "smells like fresh bread" before they are shipped to stores?

 

[HookedOnSound]

Power of suggestion

Neat article,

so If I want to sell my used speakers I should say things like "Those are sweet speakers!" ?

It does make sense (pun intended)

Honestly, I strongly believe that our past experiences stored in our memory dictacte how we interact with sensory input and our environment.

When someone says some words or we experience some familiar smell and/or taste, we associate with previous experiences.

If you read or hear the words "Homemade Apple Pie", how many of you can associate it to a positive experience such as your childhood with your Mom making an apple pie in the kitchen?

I bet some of you can probably even taste it on your lips right now...

yep, the mind is a frightening thing...

If I can get my next speakers with the smell of rich Corinthian Leather I'd be a happy man!

 

[mtrycrafts]

Even highly motivated audiophiles can't deny that the same could happen when they attribute improved audio performance to dubious tweaks.

Yes, interesting article indeed
But, I would not under estimate the golden ears. Facts will not get in their way

Now they are arguing what JJ said about music not being a sensitive source to differentiate. After all, they know what they hear. So they are blaming the DBT protocol Never mind that music is difficult to differentiate small differences with. Too dynamic, too variable, masking, etc.

 

[20to20K]

Hmmmm...

I'm wondering...just to confuse people...if they labeled one of
the scents "cutting the cheese"!

Sorry...

 

[Swerd]

I'm wondering...just to confuse people...if they labeled one of
the scents "cutting the cheese"!

If the cheese was purchased at a gourmet cheese shop and the pricetag was prominently displayed - prior to cutting - there would no doubt be someone who found the aroma to be "pungent but alluring" .

 

[Swerd]

Yes, interesting article indeed
But, I would not under estimate the golden ears. Facts will not get in their way

Yes, we all have experienced audiophools with golden opinions of themselves and their audio gear. They have mistakenly attacked blind testing methods because its results conflict with their own (often irrational) opinions. Their arguments against blind testing remind me of the silly explanations that you can never know if the light in the refrigerator goes out when you shut the door because you have to open the door again to see the light.

That's why I want to see a blind listening test that includes enough negative and positve control tests that define what listeners could and could not hear under the conditions of the test. Supplementary scientific reports, such as the one I pointed out when starting this thread, add amunition to the argument.

Have you read the series of AH articles on Human Hearing http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/roomacoustics/HumanHearing.php? I haven't had the time yet to read them. I wonder if there is any useful info in them to add to the blind testing debate?

 

[miklorsmith]

Yes, Placebo is Big

True. Cannot argue that there are useless products out there and ones that are overdesigned and overpriced for what they do. Are the $600 vibration isolators better than the crafty ones I made? One could argue vibration isolation hasn't been proven to work thus is meaningless.

However, it is easy to get fooled into making pessimism and cynicism predominant in thinking about one's stereo. There Are opportunities for improvements. Which ones? I have some that work for me and I've found some don't. Placebo? Who cares? If I hear it and didn't pay too much (for me), didn't I get my money's worth?

My issue isn't first-hand complaints that a particular product doesn't make sense or that a person failed to hear improvements in a given situation, it's the universal casting-aside of ALL potential improvements that is every bit as dogmatic and misguided as the cable-slingers over at AA.

The world ain't black-and-white. Try to rise above those you snicker at on the other side of the fence.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Are the $600 vibration isolators better than the crafty ones I made? One could argue vibration isolation hasn't been proven to work thus is meaningless.

My wife would argue vibration isolation is not meaningless, but stupid. Never isolate vibration. It encourages titalation.

More audio humor.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Their arguments against blind testing remind me of the silly explanations that you can never know if the light in the refrigerator goes out when you shut the door because you have to open the door again to see the light.

Funny you should bring this up
There is a way though the next time you open the fridge, the bulbs effect will show, it will be warm while the frezer section is almost as cold as before
Check shows no problems with the fridge. Investigate the micro switch and is fine. Add a thicker foam tape on the switch to ensure activation, problem goes away



Have you read the series of AH articles on Human Hearing http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/roomacoustics/HumanHearing.php? I haven't had the time yet to read them. I wonder if there is any useful info in them to add to the blind testing debate?

Yes. I am not sure if it does.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The world ain't black-and-white. .

Try that on for Ohms law, or a few others.

And those gray areas can be tested too, no?

 

[Swerd]

Response

… it is easy to get fooled into making pessimism and cynicism predominant in thinking about one's stereo. There Are opportunities for improvements. Which ones? I have some that work for me and I've found some don't. Placebo? Who cares? If I hear it and didn't pay too much (for me), didn't I get my money's worth?

I think many people confuse the scientific approach to answering a question with "pessimism and cynicism in thinking" as you put it. It is really skepticism - science takes a show-me approach. If you can show-me, I'll believe it. But it has to be a convincing demonstration.

… There Are opportunities for improvements. Which ones? I have some that work for me and I've found some don't. Placebo? Who cares? If I hear it and didn't pay too much (for me), didn't I get my money's worth?

That's precisely the question we all want to answer, which opportunities for improvement actually make an audible difference, and how do we know when the pereceived audible difference is real and when it is caused by power of suggestion or other placebo-like effects. The problem with placebos is that they work with some people and not others, and even on the people for which they can work, they don't work all the time.

… My issue isn't first-hand complaints that a particular product doesn't make sense or that a person failed to hear improvements in a given situation, it's the universal casting-aside of ALL potential improvements that is every bit as dogmatic and misguided as the cable-slingers over at AA.

The world ain't black-and-white. Try to rise above those you snicker at on the other side of the fence.

I am certainly not dogmatically casting aside ALL potential improvements. And no one is snickering here. But there are too many types of speakers, audio gear, and assorted tweeks available for us to listen to them all first hand. We need a systemic way to understand what types of changes should work and what types should not. To do that intelligently, we would be foolish to ignore how much the power of suggestion can affect our perceptions.