pipe-in music for house

[mike c]

hey guys... my dad is gonna need some pipe in music for the house in 7-8 locations (total of 15-16 ceiling mounted speakers)

what am I gonna need? a pre-amp? and how many amps? how many watts?
also, to get individual volume controls for each room, is it as simple as connecting the speaker wires from amp to volume knob (the one connected to switches, sort of like a big dimmer) to speakers?

what about left and right sound? or should the sound be mono?

 

[jcPanny]

Whole house audio

There are a seral ways to achieve this, here are two common methods:

1. Easiest and most cost effective is to get one or more powerful 2 channel amps (Behrenger A500, etc.). Wire the left and right channel outputs to impedence matching volume controls in each room. (4 14AWG wires to each room). Run 2 pairs of 14 AWG / 2 conductor speaker wire from each volume control to the in-cieling speakers. To calculate the necessary amp power, Total amp power / 8 = power to each speaker (i.e. 200 Watts / 8 = 25 Watts each).

2. Buy a distribution amp with a seperate channel for each speaker. Some systems include fancy keypads with I/R repeaters and multi-zone / multi-source capability. You will need an additional run of Cat5 to each volume control from the Amp for the control signals.

 

[mike c]

thanks jcpanny (I lost track of this thread)

so you think it is ok to tap so many speakers to an a500? doesnt the impedance halve for each extra speaker I install? also, can I install a "sonance" attenuator (to act as volume control for each room)

sonance also sells powered volume controls but only has 7.5wrms, that's the same amount as the a500 amp

 

[jcPanny]

Distribution Amp.

thanks jcpanny (I lost track of this thread)

so you think it is ok to tap so many speakers to an a500? doesnt the impedance halve for each extra speaker I install? also, can I install a "sonance" attenuator (to act as volume control for each room)

sonance also sells powered volume controls but only has 7.5wrms, that's the same amount as the a500 amp

Yes, if you use impedence matching volume controls, you can connect 8 pairs of speakers to a single amp channel. If you set all the VC's to 8 (speakers), they will cause the amp to see an 8 ohm impedence. If you set the VC's to 4 (speakers), the amp will see 4 ohms. 230 Watts / 8 = 28 Watts per speaker. This should be plenty of power for background music. If you want to crank it up at the pool, then get another amp or very efficient speakers.

 

[mike c]

jcpanny, pls explain this to me like a 6 year old: " If you set all the VC's to 8 (speakers), they will cause the amp to see an 8 ohm impedence. If you set the VC's to 4 (speakers), the amp will see 4 ohms."

from the VC manual:
e.g. I have four 8ohm speakers = 2ohm impedance

I plan on using a 2 channel harman kardon 3380 80w x 2 + an a500 amp.
with only 6 pairs of speakers, I was considering 2 pairs for the HK and 4 for the a500

 

[jcPanny]

Impedence matching settings

Mike,
Here is an example of a high quality volume control with the impedence matching feature:
http://http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001EMLRK/qid=1138291768/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl23/102-1055522-2164167?n=507846&s=electronics&v=glance

If you directly connect more then one speaker to an amp, the resistance is in parallel, so the amp sees 1/2 the resistance of 1 speaker. If you use an impedence matching volume control, the jumper settings basically increase the resistance.

For example, if you connected 2 pairs of speakers to IMVCs you would use the 2x jumper setting. This would cause each VC to measure 16 ohms so the amp would still see an 8 ohm load. If you have 6-8 pairs of speakers and use the 4x setting, then the A500 amp would see a 4ohm load. This is now problem for the A500, but the HK would work best with a 6-8 ohm load.

If your VCs do not have impedence matching then get different ones or get a speaker selector box that has this feature.

 

[mike c]

the sonance VC30RIM actually stands for volume control 30 watts rms max Impedance matching.

so I don't know why that was its example in the manual. hmmm.
http://www.sonance.com/subs/products.php?category_id=38&option=get_category&thread_one_cat_id=29&thread_one_cat_name=Electronics&thread_two_cat_id=&thread_two_cat_name=
http://www.sonance.com/image_data/downloads/1052867676.pdf

I couldnt check that link, could you give me specific VC brands I should be looking out for?

(thanks jcpanny)

 

[mike c]

bump

some other retailers are suggesting TOA VC's. but these need line matching and main matching stuff (I dont understand)

ok, I plan on going ahead with the SONANCE VC30RIM's , is there a chance that setup will set fire to the house?

3 pairs powered by the HK 3480 and 3 pairs powered by an A500
6 pairs of JBL soundpoint SP6C

HK3480 3 pairs of speaker wires to 3 sonance VC's then speaker wires to 3 pairs of speakers
HK3480 pre-out to behringer A500 to 3 pairs of speaker wires then to 3 sonance VC's then speaker wires to 3 pairs of speakers

 

[mike c]

If you directly connect more then one speaker to an amp, the resistance is in parallel, so the amp sees 1/2 the resistance of 1 speaker. If you use an impedence matching volume control, the jumper settings basically increase the resistance.

For example, if you connected 2 pairs of speakers to IMVCs you would use the 2x jumper setting. This would cause each VC to measure 16 ohms so the amp would still see an 8 ohm load. If you have 6-8 pairs of speakers and use the 4x setting, then the A500 amp would see a 4ohm load. This is now problem for the A500, but the HK would work best with a 6-8 ohm load.

hi jcPanny, I finally got what you mean ... I can't believe I missed it in the sonance manual ... I can't choose jumper settings, but this VC can make the amp see twice the ohmage.

thanks jcPanny!

 

[jcPanny]

Sonnace Volume controls

With the model you listed, 8 VC's connected to a single amp = 16 ohms / 8 = 2 ohms. Most amps are not happy with an impedence that low. You would be better off with the Sonnace VC60RIM or similar. In addition to the higher power handeling, it has jumper settings for up to 8 pairs of speakers.

Your dad will not be happy if you go cheap on the VCs and his amp is cutting out during a party.

Here is another link to the Russound IMVC. It is good enough for the AH Home theater system, handels 126 watts, and only $31.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001EMLRK/ref=ord_cart_shr/102-1055522-2164167?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance&n=172282

The higher power handeling would allow you to use to Behringer A500's to deliver a max of almost 60 watts per speaker. Most receivers can't deliver that into 2 channels.

Let us know what speakers you select and how the system turns out.

 

[mike c]

hi jcPanny, only the VC30RIM was available (though only 3 was in stock - bought the 3)

I will try to get the VC60RIM's for the 3 that I didn't buy. ( I needed to get the VC's right away for my testing because the contractor needs to start the wiring/piping and cannot wait for the importation of the VC60RIM.)

I bought 6 pairs of JBL SP6C soundpoint speakers ... about the 2 ohms though, I only intend to power a maximum of 3 pairs to this harman receiver ... that leaves 5.3ohms OR 2 pairs which will leave it at 8ohms again. or completely not use it and get 2 behringer a500's (or 1 EP1500) 3 pairs each.

 

[jcPanny]

Power handeling

hey guys... my dad is gonna need some pipe in music for the house in 7-8 locations (total of 15-16 ceiling mounted speakers)

what am I gonna need? a pre-amp? and how many amps? how many watts?
also, to get individual volume controls for each room, is it as simple as connecting the speaker wires from amp to volume knob (the one connected to switches, sort of like a big dimmer) to speakers?

what about left and right sound? or should the sound be mono?

If you are planning on wiring for 8 rooms you might as well get the VCs in all locations that can handle it. The 5.3 ohms should not be a problem for a midfi HK receiver or a single A500. Also keep in mind that a single A500 is capable of way more then 90 Watts (30 x 3) into 5.3 ohms so if one of the VCs starts smoking then it is time for an upgrade. I am not sure what the failure mode would be and if it could potentially damage the speakers, amp, start a fire, etc.

 

[mike c]

I changed the number of speakers to 6 pairs.

now you scared me.

 

[mike c]

I have new options (to prevent fire)

4 pairs to a separate amp (8ohm / 4 = 2 ohms * ohm doubler = amp sees 4 ohms)

the A500 has 230wpc on 4 ohms ... for the 4 pairs each VC will get 57.5 watts if the volume is maxed out.

option 2 amp is the Rotel RB03
70wpc x 2 @ 8 ohms OR 180 watts bridged mode (4ohms unknown)
let us assume 4 ohm rating is half of bridge mode.
90w / 4 = 22.5 watts per VC if volume is maxed out.

 

[jcPanny]

Multizone System

There are several ways to accomplish your goal. Your 60 Watts per channel number bellow assumes that you have upgraded the VCs to handle 60 Watts or more and are not using the 30 Watt model. The cost of good VCs is much less then additional amplifiers.

Given this fact, I would start with a single Behringer A500 running all six pairs of 8 ohm speakers. With all jumpers set to 4 pairs of speakers, the amp will see about 5 ohms and deliver close to its max power, about 30-40 watts per speaker. This will be really loud unless you have a huge room and very inefficient speakers. If this is not enough power, then you can add a second behringer and run them in bridged mode, assuming your speakers and VCs can handle the additional power.

Good luck with the project.

 

[mike c]

I just checked with the supplier, no VC60's. only VC30's

so my main problem is frying the VC's with too much power ...
step 1 - add an additional pair of speakers at the control area (so the controller can hear how loud the music is and not crank the volume)
step 2 - pick a new amp (over the a500) maybe 1 or 2 Rotel RB-03 amps (rotel faq says it is 100w at 4 ohms) -> with 4 pairs, that would leave 25w per speaker.

if only the a500 can do 2 ohms, I'll stick all the speakers there. only amp I can think of that is 2 ohms is the ep1500 and we just go back to the problem of too much power.

 

[jcPanny]

Impedence matching

You might consider using a speaker selector box that would provide the impedence matching feature. All VCs would be set for 1 pair of spekeakers.
Also, a single Behringer seeing an impedence of 8 ohms or more can only deliver 30 Watts to each speaker, so it would not be a power problem. Take the 30 Watt power limit into consideration when selecting the speakers.

This should work:
http://www.audiosource.net/ihism6.html

Another idea.
The volume controls on the front of the A500 can also be used to limit the maximum power. Presumably, max setting = max amplification of input signal.

 

[mike c]

hey jcpanny,

instead of the speaker box, or the 2 external amp option ... I found a Rotel RMB1066 six channel amp (60w x 6)

I can stick all 6 pairs of speakers to this amp, all of them will see 30w at 8ohms.

I also get a signal sensing auto-on feature, and this amp has pre-outs too, and also I only need to input the left and right channel once, it has a built in link function where all the other binding posts will get their signal from the first input.

I'm gonna get it tuesday next week

 

[jcPanny]

# of amp channels

hey jcpanny,

instead of the speaker box, or the 2 external amp option ... I found a Rotel RMB1066 six channel amp (60w x 6)

I can stick all 6 pairs of speakers to this amp, all of them will see 30w at 8ohms.

I also get a signal sensing auto-on feature, and this amp has pre-outs too, and also I only need to input the left and right channel once, it has a built in link function where all the other binding posts will get their signal from the first input.

I'm gonna get it tuesday next week

Mike,
Sounds good, but I think 60 Watts x 6 means that it will power 3 pairs of speakers. You will need 2 of these amps to drive 6 pairs so budget accordingly.

 

[mike c]

yes, 60 * 6 = 3 pairs of speakers
but because of the Impedance doubler of the VC's, I can stick all 6 there and the amp would still see 8 ohms. (16ohm + 16ohm = 8ohm)