Pioneer amps "harsh" in direct stereo and for music in general?

[kay]

I was trying to dig up some more info on the Pioneer AX3 amp and several users described Pioneer amps as "bright", "aggressive", "big grunt", "fast attacking sound with plenty of bite" but not as smooth sounding compared to Yamaha, Denon, Marantz. (Yes, even the THX ones!)

Is there any truth to that claim? I haven't been able to audition the AX3, no local shops have demos of that, so it kind of cooled off my enthusiasm for ordering it online.

I listened to a Yamaha RX-V750 on the weekend in Pure Direct mode and I really enjoyed that. According to the Pioneer manual, it has a type of direct stereo mode as well, where all tone circuitry is completely bypassed. Would that be the equivalent? Surely, at similar price levels, an amp is an amp and apart from connections and DSP modes, the only major difference is power supplies? Can they really sound that different?

Pioneer AX3 product page:
http://www.pioneer-eur.com/eur/product_detail.jsp?product_id=5068&taxonomy_id=62-98

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Receivers can and do sound different, regardless of what others say on this forum. Whether you believe me, dozens of other forums on audio, or the other "few", you need to compare them side by side with a set of high end headphones and a few personal cd's. If you enjoyed the Yamaha, then I would suggest purchasing a Yamaha. They have plenty of tonal control as do the Pioneers, which can be "toned down" to become less aggessive and more like a Marantz or HK.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Even providing all the receivers sound different, the problem with using 'phones is that the only thing you'll learn is how the 'phone output sounds. That won't tell you how the unit sounds thru speakers, I'm afraid.

 

[kay]

I know not to take the Internet too seriously but there were several comments from different people (oh, this was on avforums.com btw - I went to do search there seeing as AX3 is a Euro-only model).

Would one use the EQ settings to tone down the sound of it or something else that gives it this characteristic? The the AX3 has got the advanced MCACC which does EQ calibration/alignment across all the speakers, not just distance/delay setup.

I will definitely audition the Pioneer then, I'm sure I can find it somewhere. The Yamaha RX-V750 is a bit more expensive and offers less power. But yes, I enjoyed it tremendously and think it has enough power for my room.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

The MCACC won't tone down a set of Klipsch F-3 towers in a plaster room with concrete floors. Some speakers match up better with some receivers and amps. It's a never ending process. Rob is correct. Headphones won't tell you how floortanding or bookshelf speakers will sound with a particular unit, but they will reveal differences without outside influence. You can really tell one unit from another with a good pair of Senheisers.

 

[kay]

So it's audition, audition, audition

Thanks, Buckeyefan & Rob.

 

[kay]

PS. Provided that receiver has graphic EQ on all channels, speakers are a good match, and room acoustics are not way off either way, how much tweaking is possible? Buckeyefan, you always say with most of these receivers it's possible to tune the sound as much as you like? How many dB of correction are really possible at the EQ level before sounds begins to deteriorate because of the electronic intervention?

 

[WmAx]

How many dB of correction are really possible at the EQ level before sounds begins to deteriorate because of the electronic intervention?

Potentially, an equalizer will not electronically deteriorate(acoustic deterioration is another matter) the signal in any appreciable way. Some E.Q.s(analog) may already have a high noise level, at which point boosting treble frequncies would make it apparent quickly. But the same thing can happen with music tracks that already have high noise levels recorded onto them, even with the use of a low noise equalizer. Some DSP E.Q.s may clip(it is obvious when this occurs) when boosting past a certain amount. Many E.Q.s may not change the response as the graphic display would lead one to believe, thus having an effect on a much larger band of frequencies than is intended. A very good equalizer, however, will not degrade the signal in any appreciable way; it will only change the frequency response of the signal, and it will only affect the selected frequency bands you instruct it to change.

-Chris

 

[PENG]

You can really tell one unit from another with a good pair of Senheisers.

With headphones, you are using the pre or pre/pro sections only, aren't you?

 

[PENG]

ISurely, at similar price levels, an amp is an amp and apart from connections and DSP modes, the only major difference is power supplies? Can they really sound that different?

I think you are right, they really can't sound that different, unless you have speakers that are hard to drive.

For difficult to drive 8 ohm speakers, e.g. sensitivity<88dB aneochic, or power hungry ones, e.g. Polk RTi10, stick with receivers that are generous with their power supplies, e.g. Harman Kardon, NAD, Denon (2805 and up). With HK, I know others disagree, but for inefficient floor standing speakers, I would not go lower than the 635. They do have huge power supplies in them, but their output ratings are still not that great (especially in 1, 2 channel driven ratings) compared to Denon, Yamaha & Pioneer within the same price bracket. No doubt they are conservatively rated, but that does not make them "powerful", unless you reach out for their flag ship model.

For 4 ohm speakers, e.g. Polk LSI series, Axioms, stick with NAD, Rotel. Otherwise HK, Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer will do the job well, as long as they have pre-outs so you can add an external amp to help out. Fortunately, the nominal impedance of most popular speakers are 8 ohms.

Just check you link, the AX3 is definitely Euro, I suspect its NA equivalent is one of the Elite model, probably the 55TXI, an older model (2003/2004). The new models have more power, PL2X and other new features.

 

[kay]

AX3 is the Euro equivalent of the Elite 54TX as far as I can tell - except for component video switching, all the other features are identical - twin 22,000uf caps, 7 channels X 100w, THX Select, AIR Studios tuning etc. etc. I don't care for PL IIx as I practically never watch TV or VHS.

Here's another question: say I get a really nice "warm" CD player, a NAD or a Denon, and hook it up to the Pioneer using analogue connection. What will the result sound like?

 

[T2T]

Here's another question: say I get a really nice "warm" CD player, a NAD or a Denon, and hook it up to the Pioneer using analogue connection. What will the result sound like?

It should sound pretty nice. I have a CD/DVD player, using the DACs in the player connected to my 54TX and the sound is very good.

 

[kay]

Well that's great news - I could add a proper CD player further down the line; because most DVD players don't sound that great with CDs anyway (or at least HiFi boffs will tell you so, I've never compared directly so can't tell).

I also spotted a nice 2nd hand Denon 2105 (Denon's around here are typically *very* overpriced) and considering going with that to save some cash perhaps, but it's just $150 between that and a brand new Pioneer. Too many choices

 

[Xsound]

Kay,
The AX3 is similar to the US version called the VSX53-tx (I believe that I have the numbering correct.) Let me tellyou my impression from owning the VSX-54 (a more recent release). I would in no way describe the sound as harsh. The Pioneers use MOSfet amplification rather than the traditional pushpull transistors of most amps. One of the characteristics of MOSfets is warmth. In the old days people use to talk about the "MOSfet mist" to describe the warm tones that the amps produced. People also say the sound is "tubelike." My 54 is very smooth.

Enjoy
X

 

[PENG]

I agree with Xsound. Those who found the Pioneer Elite models harsh sounding should check into other components in their system that may be the real culprit. The 2105 is a good one too. It has pre-outs, so you have the option of adding an external amp.

 

[3beanlimit]

I just traded in a 47TX. It has the same amp as the 49 and I believe the 55 TX..dunno for sure.

I'll say this though.....Pioneer doesn't have a harsh or "bright" sound. Tom Foolery...

Also..like the above mentioned, some of what you hear is more or less related to the type of speaker your using.

 

[kay]

Thanks for the correction, Xsound!

Good to hear the similar Elite models are liked!

 

[kay]

I had a listen to a AX5i today - which is the AX3's bigger brother. Came away very unimpressed for some reason Music sounded flat and dead. The Matrix fight scenes were amazing on the other hand. Now I'm not sure why that is, perhaps it was speaker placement and acoustics? This was at a big retail store whose demo room was kind of noisy the speakers were in less than ideal locations. Still, why did the movie sound so good and music so lifeless?

 

[PENG]

I had a listen to a AX5i today - which is the AX3's bigger brother. Came away very unimpressed for some reason Music sounded flat and dead.

At least it did not sound harsh to you, right?

Since you demo it with a movie as well, was the same DVD player use for music? For whatever reason, I find my DVD players do well with DVD music but not CD music. I have 4 DVD players, the only one that can play CD like a CD player is the Denon 3910. The others (especially the cheapest one incidentally) sound "thin", using either digital or analog pure direct. I know this does not make sense but that's my experience with my system.

 

[kay]

It was! DVD player was a Pioneer DV-866 or something along those lines. Thing is, I've heard the exact same speakers hooked up to a Pioneer DV-575 player and a Yamaha amp and the music sounded way better. But point taken, I'm definitely going to add a dedicated CD player to the system.