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samalama

Audiophyte
I am buying a Denon 2805 and, according to the Manual, a phantom center can be created using the "Center Width Control".

Any opinions on using a "phantom center" in this fashion? I have a difficult furniture situation and cannot fit the center channel on the speakers I am considering (Axiom, Aperion, Sonus Faber, Paradigm).

Thanks.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
I assume you are talking about PLII Music mode as that is the only matrix decoder I know of that has such a control. The higher you set the control (my Onkyo goes between 0 and 7) the more info from the center is routed to the mains - so at a setting of 7 any info that would be destined for the center would be equally split between L and R main.

Yes, it works well and if you don't have the option of using a real center channel it may just suit you fine. Try it and see. Just as an aside, I tend to use PLII Music rather than Movie for everything. While I do have a center channel, I set the center width to 4 so just a slight amount of the center info is sent to the mains - makes the soundstage just a bit wider and works well in my room.
 
B

bilgirami

Junior Audioholic
Rather than starting a new thread, i think I can make use of this one.

I am driving my M60s and QS8s with a Yamaha RX-V663. I want to setup a phantom center and not sure how to do that. There is not much I can find in the manual. Does anyone have expereince with doing this? What setting do I have to adjust.
Thanks
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
I am driving my M60s and QS8s with a Yamaha RX-V663. I want to setup a phantom center and not sure how to do that.
If you don't actually have a center channel speaker just set it to no/off in the setup menus.
 
F

fredk

Audioholic General
I remember reading somewhere that the phantom center will work well for the sweet spot, but poorly off axis. I think it was in one of the home theater setup articles here at audioholics.

Fred
 
Haoleb

Haoleb

Audioholic Field Marshall
Yes, when using phantom center (fancy way of saying stereo for the front) it wont sound like its coming from exactly in the center if you are too far to the left or right. The only place its going to sound perfect is in the sweet spot. Personally I prefer the sound of a phantom center channel because its much more natural sounding, But alas. Doesnt work well in a setup where more than one person is using it.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
How well a phantom works depends on the distance between the L/R speakers. If the distance is more than twice their radiating patterns, or if their patterns are blocked by the TV or other things, then the two patterns won't overlap properly to create a good center image.
So the distance needed will be determined by the speakers used.
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
Personally I prefer the sound of a phantom center channel because its much more natural sounding, But alas. Doesnt work well in a setup where more than one person is using it.
I agree. I have used phantom exclusively for years, but I always watch movies alone.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I tried phantom for a while until my center came in and was not a big fan of it.

Another factor in how well phantom will work for you is how well your speakers image and how well you orient them relative to your listening position. With no center, you have to get the speaker placement right or your soundstage will collapse to one side or the other.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
... Personally I prefer the sound of a phantom center channel because its much more natural sounding...
I agree. I have used phantom exclusively for years, but I always watch movies alone.
Interesting. I hate a phantom center. I have some old recordings on SACD that are 3 channel (the front three) and much prefer 3 channel SACDs to 2 channel stereo. I think they sound more natural (like real live music) than 2 channel recordings. I wonder if you have been listening to 2 channel recordings too long and have not been spending enough time listening to live acoustic music. Or maybe you have not heard a system with 3 identical speakers, and have only heard systems where the manufacturer claimed they were "voice matched" when they really weren't.

Anyway, to each his own. You are not the first people I have encountered who did not like having a center channel. I will never go without one.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I found that phantom center suffers the most with multichannel music in particular.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
I found that phantom center suffers the most with multichannel music in particular.
And some dvd-a/sacd discs are phantom center, the singer's voice only coming from the L/R, although, there maybe some instruments coming from the center. So then you end up with the same senereo, sit off center and the singer's voice pulls either to the L or R.
But how good a phantom center is for music depends on both the speakers and recording.
 
Haoleb

Haoleb

Audioholic Field Marshall
Interesting. I hate a phantom center. I have some old recordings on SACD that are 3 channel (the front three) and much prefer 3 channel SACDs to 2 channel stereo. I think they sound more natural (like real live music) than 2 channel recordings. I wonder if you have been listening to 2 channel recordings too long and have not been spending enough time listening to live acoustic music. Or maybe you have not heard a system with 3 identical speakers, and have only heard systems where the manufacturer claimed they were "voice matched" when they really weren't.

Anyway, to each his own. You are not the first people I have encountered who did not like having a center channel. I will never go without one.

Or speakers that image well and proper placement ;)
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Or speakers that image well and proper placement ;)
The thing is, there is no theoretical reason (or experimental one either) I have ever encountered that would suggest that having only two channels would be better than three, unless there is something wrong with the setup. Why do you think it is an advantage to have only two speakers instead of three? Sure, if the center speaker is bad (or a bad match--try using a different speaker for the right and left channel and see how you like it), or is poorly placed or poorly level matched, then it would make sense that it would be worse. But why would it be worse if an identical speaker was used, and it is properly set up?

Here you can read a pdf about some Bell Laboratory testing that was done on this subject:

http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/bell.labs/auditoryperspective.pdf

It is interesting reading. As far as I know, no research since then has come to any fundamentally different conclusion.

For those not going to read the few pages of text, I will give a couple of relevant quotes from Auditory Perspective-Physical Factors:

The 3-channel system proved definitely superior to the 2-channel by eliminating the recession of the center-stage positions and in reducing the differences in localization for various observing positions.
In other words, one of the advantages of a three speaker system is the "depth" of sound in the center of the stage; a second advantage is improving the consistency of the sound from different listening positions. (People in this thread seem to be aware of only this second advantage.)

Consequently 2-channel reproduction of orchestral music gives good satisfaction, and the difference between it and 3-channel reproduction for music probably is less than for speech reproduction or the reproduction of sounds from moving sources.
2-channel can give a reasonable approximation of the sound, but the important point for the present discussion is that 3-channel reproduction resulted in more realistic reproduction of the sound.

Historically, the reason for two channel systems instead of three is the added cost of a third channel (there was enough question about whether people would pay for two channel reproduction instead of the original single channel audio), and the difficulty in getting a three channel signal on a record for consumer use. And, of course, the setup requires more space in the home, and it is more difficult to properly set up. And 2-channel was judged to be "good enough". It is, however, far from perfect.

We can say, of course, that 2 and 3 channel sound will be different. And it may be that one person will prefer the sound of 2 channels. However, that will not alter the fact that it less closely resembles the sound of actual performers on stage. These days, most people have listened to 2 channel reproduction of sound for most of their lives, and do not regularly listen to actual live music that isn't produced through speakers. So that is likely to be many people's "standard" for what sounds "right".

I should mention the fact that I do not want to "force" anyone to listen to a real center channel. If they prefer to not have one, that is their choice, and I would not wish to interfere with their system. Many people prefer to alter sound in a variety of ways, such as by overemphasizing bass. That is certainly their right (as long as they don't play it loudly into other people's space, as, for example, when one lives in an apartment with acoustically "thin" walls and floors). But it is merely their personal preference, and has no relation to what would be an accurate reproduction of the original sound that the musicians created.
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
Why do you think it is an advantage to have only two speakers instead of three? Sure, if the center speaker is bad (or a bad match--try using a different speaker for the right and left channel and see how you like it), or is poorly placed or poorly level matched, then it would make sense that it would be worse.
In my system, it is not physically possible to use a center identical to the mains. It is also almost never the case that the center will be in an identical acoustic environment to the mains (in fact, I am not sure that this is physically possible, either.)
What I tried was the center speaker recommended as the best match to my mains, and it sounded quite noticeably worse than phantom.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
In my system, it is not physically possible to use a center identical to the mains. It is also almost never the case that the center will be in an identical acoustic environment to the mains (in fact, I am not sure that this is physically possible, either.)
What I tried was the center speaker recommended as the best match to my mains, and it sounded quite noticeably worse than phantom.
For most systems you would be right. The best possible setup would require using an acousticly transparent screen/projector with identical LCRs mounted behind the screen, in perfect horizontal alignment.
 
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