Phantom Center Channel vs 3 ceiling mounted ?

[Lugnut42]

I received competing advice from two shops and would like some unbiased advice. Shop one recommended ceiling (7.5 to 8 foot ceiling height in basement) mounting three Bowers & Wilkins CCM 817's for the L, R and Center channels. Another shop felt that mounting two B&W FPM 6's on either side of the 55 inch wall mounted plasma would create a better center stage than the other shops setup. Any advice ? I thought about doing the two FPM 6's and then ceiling mounting two CCM 817's or two CCM 80s for the left and right but that is a fair amount of more money as well and I wasn't sure if it would even be worth it.
Additionally, the first shop was recommending the B&W ASW610 XP subwoofer and the other was recommending the Velodyne DEQ-15R Sub instead. I can't decide and don't know who to ask.

 

[JerryLove]

You will only get biased opinions. An unbiased opinion can only truly be had by installing both and going into your room with a meter.

Generally: ceiling mounts are undesirable for front speakers regardless. I'll assume you are aware of that and proceeding anyway.

Your speakers are how far apart? If we are talking "either side of a 55" TV", or 5ft-6ft between L and R, I feel you will get better sound from a 2-channel front (generally speaking). There will be others who vehemently disagree.

Going for three speakers does give you the option to go either way (shut off the center speaker). It's the safest option in the "prisoner's dilemma".

Finally: I don't know the particular subs you are looking at from personal experience. From what I've seen here, B&W has a poor reputation for subs, and Velodyne a great one.

 

[Lugnut42]

Thanks for responding so quickly. So I forgot to mention that I do not have room above the fireplace mantel and below the TV to mount a normal center channel speaker which is what I would prefer to do and which is why I am forced to the speakers on either side phantom or ceiling mounted options. The speakers on the side would be at least 5.5 feet apart but the viewing couch would also be about 17 feet away.
It sounds like you would recommend the two on either side wired phantom over the ceiling mount for the center at least. So if I go that route, do I even need the left and right ceiling speakers ? One shop said I wouldn't even need those.
Velodyne it is on the sub. I think I was headed in that direction but needed some reassurance.

 

[JerryLove]

With speakers 6-7 feet apart and your listening position 17 feet away: I don't think that there will be much directional difference between L/C/R. It sounds to me like phantoming the center might be a very god choice.

The fact that phatoming the center lets you use floor/wall speakers instead of in-ceiling would strongly lean me that way as well. In-ceiling is a poor way to do L/R or L/C/R and should generally be avoided if possible.

My recommendation. Make sure you can audition the non-in-ceiling speakers (if you cannot, you might reconsider vendors: but you could try to get some similar units at a chain store with a return policy).

Take them home. Hook them up. Run them with a phantom center.

What you are looking for is whether dialog in particular seems to come from the center (where the TV is) or does it *sound* like it's coming from L/R. If you don't have a problem with an absent center (I don't think you will): then the non-in-ceiling is the better option (for fronts at least).

 

[TLS Guy]

I received competing advice from two shops and would like some unbiased advice. Shop one recommended ceiling (7.5 to 8 foot ceiling height in basement) mounting three Bowers & Wilkins CCM 817's for the L, R and Center channels. Another shop felt that mounting two B&W FPM 6's on either side of the 55 inch wall mounted plasma would create a better center stage than the other shops setup. Any advice ? I thought about doing the two FPM 6's and then ceiling mounting two CCM 817's or two CCM 80s for the left and right but that is a fair amount of more money as well and I wasn't sure if it would even be worth it.
Additionally, the first shop was recommending the B&W ASW610 XP subwoofer and the other was recommending the Velodyne DEQ-15R Sub instead. I can't decide and don't know who to ask.

I would avoid the ceiling solution. I agree with the first shop. The B & W speakers are reasonable on walls. B & W subs are not the best. You might want to look at a greater range of subs.

 

[njedpx3]

I would avoid the ceiling solution. I agree with the first shop. The B & W speakers are reasonable on walls. B & W subs are not the best. You might want to look at a greater range of subs.

I agree with TLS and JerryLove ..B &W speakers on the walls (ceiling should be a last resort for fronts). Then look into a SVS or Hsu subwoofer.

Peace and Good Sound,

Forest Man

 

[Lugnut42]

With speakers 6-7 feet apart and your listening position 17 feet away: I don't think that there will be much directional difference between L/C/R. It sounds to me like phantoming the center might be a very god choice.

The fact that phatoming the center lets you use floor/wall speakers instead of in-ceiling would strongly lean me that way as well. In-ceiling is a poor way to do L/R or L/C/R and should generally be avoided if possible.

My recommendation. Make sure you can audition the non-in-ceiling speakers (if you cannot, you might reconsider vendors: but you could try to get some similar units at a chain store with a return policy).

Take them home. Hook them up. Run them with a phantom center.

What you are looking for is whether dialog in particular seems to come from the center (where the TV is) or does it *sound* like it's coming from L/R. If you don't have a problem with an absent center (I don't think you will): then the non-in-ceiling is the better option (for fronts at least).

So if I do the wall mounted B&Ws on either side of the tv and wire them phantom, do I even need the other two ceiling mounted left and right speakers ? The B&W CCM 817's are not flush with the ceiling and do not point down. They stick out a bit and are aimable and with the low ceiling height the TV is close to the ceiling anyway. I am not dying to spend the extra money on those two extra speakers for the L/R on top of the two FPMs wired phantom if I really won't notice the difference but I also don't want to shell out all this money for a great receiver with all this 7.1 capability and end up wasting its capabilities.
I was also considering purchasing a small 5.1 setup for another room and could use some advice on speaker systems for that that would run $1,500 or less for the 5 speakers and the sub. If it included the receiver as well, that would be great.
These are my last questions I promise and thanks again so much.

Thomas J.
"Lugnut42"

 

[JerryLove]

So if I do the wall mounted B&Ws on either side of the tv and wire them phantom, do I even need the other two ceiling mounted left and right speakers ?

In front of you? no. Behind/beside you? If you want surround, yes.

The B&W CCM 817's are not flush with the ceiling and do not point down. They stick out a bit and are aimable and with the low ceiling height the TV is close to the ceiling anyway. I am not dying to spend the extra money on those two extra speakers for the L/R on top of the two FPMs wired phantom if I really won't notice the difference but I also don't want to shell out all this money for a great receiver with all this 7.1 capability and end up wasting its capabilities.

There are limits to what I can guess.

I was also considering purchasing a small 5.1 setup for another room and could use some advice on speaker systems for that that would run $1,500 or less for the 5 speakers and the sub. If it included the receiver as well, that would be great.

2-3 pairs of Behringer 2030p's ($270-$400), two Dayton 10" or 12" subs ($300), an AVR with pre-outs (<$200 on the used market), an inexpesive 2-channel amp ($200) and an external crossover (Behringer CX2310) $80.

That will put you out maybe $1300 once you add cables and XLR converters. Use the CX to crossover the L/R to the subs, and run as 5.0 (or 4.0) with the fronts set to "full range". Make sure to put the L/R subs very close to the L/R mains.

Be warned: You may prefer this sound to your other rig.