PB12 initial thoughts & decision

[KahunaB14]

New member - Post #1 for me.

BACKGROUND: I got a receiver for Christmas and have been building out my living room audio system since. (and been lurking here during that time – big thanks for the wealth of info!) Prior to now I had a crappy HTIB that stopped working 1 yr ago so have been on regular TV speaker since. I also have a Klipsch ProMeda 5.1 Ultra in the bedroom which is my current reference.


AVR: Yamaha RX-V681

FRONTS: Klipsch RF-62II (crossed at 80Hz)

CENTER: Klipsch RC-62II (crossed at 80Hz)

REAR: None

SUB: SVS PB12-NSD (Note: I also have a SB12-NSD new in box sitting in basement)


LISTENING PREFERENCES: It WAS mostly movies – but now that I have such nice speakers I am listening to hours of music every night when I get home.


SUB PURCHASE STORY: I initially ordered an SVS SB12-NSD but changed my mind after reading on here that it may not be suitable for larger spaces. (wife and I are moving in the near future and both want a great room style open concept house. Actively looking)

Amazon wouldn’t allow me to return the SB12-NSD and I had already ordered a PB12-NSD so they said to just keep the SB12-NSD and they refunded me $399. So that is sitting un-opened in the basement.


THE ISSUE: I have only been listening for a week but I am BLOWN AWAY by the PB12-NSD in terms of movies – the whole house shakes during the Jericho missile scene in Iron Man. DEEP CLEAN BASS. Totally satisfied there. Music however – while the bass sounds clean and it mimics a base guitar and string bass really well and cleanly – there is just no initial “hit” to the bass drum (SPL?). Initially I set it up at ~40% gain (on knob) and ran YPAO and it set sub gain at +4 dB. Upped knob to ~50% and re-ran YPAO which set it at -3 dB. To get more “hit” for bass drum I upped gain to ~60% and upped the 70Hz region in the AVR +3 dB (and didn’t re-run YPAO) and it still hits only about as hard as the Klipsch dual 8” sealed sub (160 rms) from the 5.1 pro-media system for bass drums. What I mean is – the Klipsch sub seams to put out a sharper-faster pressure wave type sound whereas the SVS is a broader “slower?” sounding hit. It’s just not knocking my socks off music wise FOR DRUMS like I expected it to. But it IS growing on me the more it breaks in. Yesterday during an extended listening session of string bass music I was loving it. FYI - Walking around the living room there are really no major nulls I am hearing.


THE DILEMMA: What to do. There is no room for a 2nd PB12 right now – but there will be in our future house. But from what I am seeing on http://www.data-bass.com/systems the max dB are really only 108ish on the PB12. Maybe what I am wanting sound-wise for that “hit” is something more in the 120+ dB max SPL – especially in the 60-80Hz region.



ROOM SPECS: 12x18x8 living room (1730 ft^3). TV and speakers and sub are on one of the 12ft wide walls. Adjacent to that end there is a 6ft wide x 7ft high opening to the dining room which is 11x12 (1060 ft^3) (opening is to the right of the TV from the viewer perspective).


SUB PLACEMENT: Sub is in the corner of the side opposite the dining room entrance (left of the TV from the view perspective). Its vent and woofer are pointing toward the left 18ft wall from the viewer perspective – about 10” between it and the wall on the woofer side - and butted right up to the 12ft wall.


PERCEIVED OPTIONS:

1) Deal with it for now and add a PB-2000 or PB12-NSD later. Will this give me the sharp “hit” I am looking for?

2) Open the box on the SB12 and see how it sounds instead…perhaps sell PB12 and order another SB12 (probably cannot sell for as much if I open the box)

3) Sell both PB12 and SB12 and put funds toward something like a PSA 15S or 15V? HSU ULS-15 or VTF-15H?

4) Talk to SVS for recommendations

5) Listen more. FYI – I have a Y splitter coming so it should get me a bump in output.

Thoughts? Wisdom?

P.S. The black faux-wood exterior on the SVS matches EXACTLY with the Klipsch reference fronts. EXACT.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

My short answer would be to sell both SVS, and wait until you actually sign a contract. That way you’ll know exactly why to buy. IMO, the SB12 will destroy itself trying to pressurize a big open concept space, and actually the pb12 might also. Especially if the floor is concrete and the ceiling is vaulted, as is common with open concept homes. So with that in mind, I would keep my eye on a pair from rythmik or HSU in the 15” range, then adjust accordingly when you actually buy a house.
http://rythmikaudio.com/
http://www.hsuresearch.com/subwoofers.html

For your current setup, you could possibly use both the sb and pb together but phase interaction can make setup tricky between sealed and ported. Fwiw I had an sb2k mixed with my pc12pluses and it worked pretty good but the poor thing just couldn’t keep up.
I’m wondering if you have a null in the 50-100hz range where a lot of that punch is. If you don’t have a way to measure the response, or don’t have an spl meter(everyone should at least have one of these), you could arbitrarily add a few feet in 6” increments to the subwoofer distance to see if that helps. Basically if there’s a null in the XO region that can help fill it in, and tighten the response. You could also be used to the sound of the boomier klipsch sub and still adjusting to the sound of proper bass. Also, it’s common for many of us to bump the sub trim in the avr by a few dB to give a little bit of extra bump. You might wanna try that. I hear what you’re saying. I play drums and having a system do them justice is important. It can also be difficult to get good response from one subwoofer.

So yeah, wisdom? Loosely applied lol.
I would try the couple things I mentioned and just wait until you’re into a new place.

 

[shadyJ]

As you noted, the NSD subs from SVS are not exactly mid-bass monsters, and I would guess that this is partly the cause of the lack of 'oomph' that you have. If you added the SB12 to the mix, that can boost output in the mid-bass range. The problem is, since it is sealed, it will be out of phase with the sound coming from the PB12's ports. Depending on the phase settings, this means that it could actually lower output in the frequency band of the PB12's vented output or is cone output. It is not usually a good idea to mix ported and sealed subs since they are going to fight at certain frequency bands.

Something else to consider is the shape of the response that the SVS sub is producing in your room. If you have a lot of room gain, then the deep bass is going to be considerably boosted with respect to the mid-bass. You need to take a measurement at your listening position to see what the room is doing to the response. If you simply swapped the SVS sub with a much more powerful sub that has a similar response, you could end up with the same problem. That sub's placement in room versus your listening position may be creating some acoustic cancellation that leaves a big dip in mid-bass where you are wanting your punch.

By the way, you are not going to hear nulls by just walking around the room while listening to music. Music won't work for that, since bass lines only really occupy one note at a time in a song. You need something that is hitting the entire subwoofer frequency spectrum simultaneously, so you might be able to hear something like that if you are using a pink noise. Make sure that only your sub is producing sound if you try that. Listen for shifts in tonality. However, its always better to take actual measurements using sweeps and a measurement microphone.

If it were me, I would look at getting a 15" from Hsu or Rythmik. Looking at the burst test measurements, for example, the ULS-15 mk2 has an approximately 9 dB advantage over the PB12-NSD at 40 Hz and above. That is three times the output capability. A VTF15h mk2 or VTF3 mk5 will hold that kind of mid-bass output advantage and also have a very strong advantage in deep bass. By the way, one thing you can do in the meantime to get a bit more punch in mid-bass is to lower the crossover frequency of the speakers. The RF-62 speakers might be a bit more capable in the 60 Hz + region, with enough power. Anyway, it costs nothing to try it.

 

[shadyJ]

IMO, the SB12 will destroy itself trying to pressurize a big open concept space, and actually the pb12 might also..

The limiters in the SVS subs are very strong, you can't really wreck them by over-driving them like that. They just stop getting louder. However, driving them really hard all the time will wear them down much sooner than otherwise, so heavy use will greatly shorten their lifespan, naturally.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I recommend lowering the crossover frequency to the RF62IIs to 50Hz, if you can. I have a pair of these, and they actually have considerable output in the range of 40-60Hz.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Can’t quote @shadyJ for some reason...
Anyway, I agree where you quoted me for sure. My Sunday morning routine doesn’t allow me to focus properly(kids, wife, honey-do list!!!). The point I was trying to make is the SB just wont be as impactful as he’d like, and it’s life expectancy will be shorter. All the while he’ll be underwhelmed. I still think he should try as many free tweaks as possible and buy new subs, appropriate for the space.

 

[KahunaB14]

Ok thanks for the great feedback and ideas. I will be toying with placement later this week as I have a new longer sub-cable coming - also I have a Y-splitter coming. My current RCA cable isn't long enough to allow me to point the sub woofer/vent out into the room towards the listening position. I am hoping the new cable & splitter will also help the sub to "turn on" with more predictability when watching TV...it seems that unless I turn the AVR volume above -25 for TV viewing it doesn't automatically switch on.

I probably won't be getting an SPL meter any time soon - that suggestion got me a dirty look from the wife considering how much I already spent. Which is odd because she didn't baulk at the suggestion to sell both subs and buy a more expensive one. Maybe in a few months lol.

I did put the SB12 on cragislist - as I don't want the headache of running sealed and ported together.

I will try accepting the lack of mid-bass "thump" on the PB12 in the meantime, and probably end up putting that up for sale soon and then if it sells I can put all proceeds toward a single 15" from PSA, Rhythmic, or HSU. Then later when I move buy another

I did change the front crossover to 60Hz (I only get 20Hz increments - so its either 40, 60, 80, 100 etc.). I THINK i hear a bit more "thump" and am going to leave it on 60 for a while. My go to songs for getting this "thump" I desire is currently "Dive" by Ed Sheeran or "Hotel California" unplugged by the Eagles.

I also re-ran YPAO with the sub gain dial at ~60% and YPAO set it to -5.5 dB in the AVR. Then in AVR I upped it to -2 dB and increased the distance by ~8". This last change seemed to eliminate a slight delay between the "thump" beat in the fronts and the sub. Good tip!

The only 2 things that bum me out about the thought of selling the PB12 are...
1) How amazing it reproduces the musical tones of the bass guitar and string bass. Songs that just feature a few instruments and vocals along with a strong bass guitar/string bass like "Golden" by Lady A and several Esperanza Spaulding songs that have a nice bass line are AWESOME now!
2) The black ash exterior on the PB12 is a spot on match for the exterior of the Klipsch's - it looks like they are all out of the same product family. My wife loves how it goes together.

 

[KahunaB14]

So after a lot more listening - I am realizing that the PB12-NSD is doing it’s job on the low end and the mid bass “punch” I am looking for is at slightly higher frequencies. The PB12 is very impressive when listening to songs that have a lot of low bass (been playing with the Sub playlists on Spotify lately). That is with the fronts crossing at 80Hz.


I don’t know how the Denon AVR’s work – but my Yamaha DOES NOT have a separate crossover for the sub control (confirmed with Yamaha). So when I set the fronts at 80Hz – then my PB12 is only working from 80Hz on down. I would love to try changing the crossover on the Sub to say 120Hz or 150Hz to COMPLIMENT this region in the RF-62II’s - but alas that is not an option for my setup.


Soooo – for that powerful tactile mid bass kick drum “punch” that I am lacking (Songs like Believer – Imagine Dragons, Hotel California – Eagles etc that have a big kick drum component)– it probably has to be coming from my Klipsch RF-62II’s – but they are clearly not powerful enough.


Are there any other options? I know HSU had a mid bass module that had built in low and high pass filters – however I don’t think they are available anymore – and I don’t think that it would work seeing as how I cannot adjust my sub crossover higher on the AVR.


Would an option be to add another set of fronts and run them off the front presence channels? I do have a lot more un-used channels on my receiver right now after all. Or front bookshelf speakers? Or when I add my rear 2 speakers eventually can I go for something with a lot of mid range punch that will still work together with my RF-62/RC-62 setup?

 

[Irvrobinson]

How do you have your Subwoofer Trim Control set?

 

[KahunaB14]

Does "trim" mean "gain"? If so its at ~55% on the knob on the sub itself, and +2 dB on the subwoofer "level" in the AVR.

When I ran the YPAO I had the gain knob on the sub set to ~60-65% and YPAO set the AVR sub level to -5dB. But then the sub wouldn't normally come on when watching TV to SVS told me to turn the AVR level up to +1 or +2 dB and compensate by turning the knob on the sub down a bit.

 

[shadyJ]

Does "trim" mean "gain"? If so its at ~55% on the knob on the sub itself, and +2 dB on the subwoofer "level" in the AVR.

When I ran the YPAO I had the gain knob on the sub set to ~60-65% and YPAO set the AVR sub level to -5dB. But then the sub wouldn't normally come on when watching TV to SVS told me to turn the AVR level up to +1 or +2 dB and compensate by turning the knob on the sub down a bit.

Does the Yamaha have something like a 'full bass' setting where it does not high-pass filter the speakers?

Here is a sub that is almost like a mid-bass module: Premiere Acoustics PA-150. It has a lot more mid-bass than the PB12-NSD, pretty much doubling to tripling its output from 50 Hz and above. The only problem is it has a considerably higher tuning point and that can make for problems in deep bass if you try to run it alongside the PB12-NSD, which does deep bass very well.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Does "trim" mean "gain"? If so its at ~55% on the knob on the sub itself, and +2 dB on the subwoofer "level" in the AVR.

When I ran the YPAO I had the gain knob on the sub set to ~60-65% and YPAO set the AVR sub level to -5dB. But then the sub wouldn't normally come on when watching TV to SVS told me to turn the AVR level up to +1 or +2 dB and compensate by turning the knob on the sub down a bit.

Personally, I think with a room of your size, which isn't very big volumetrically, a pair of RF62IIs and even one sub should provide everything you're looking for in terms of impact. I think it is likely that your problem is that you are using an AVR, which is really intended for HT use, and with movie foley at that, for listening to classic rock. I think the signal processing in the AVR might be inadvertently ruining everything.

I think when you're listening to music you should go to Pure Direct mode, or whatever it's called on a Yamaha, set the low-pass control on the sub to 60Hz, drive the RF62IIs full-range, and adjust the volume level on the sub to taste. Given the frequency response of the RF62IIs and the fact that you're listening to studio mixes like classic rock, taste is all that counts here. I don't know much about AVRs, and I'm not sure the sub outputs can be full-range. If they can't, the only way to bypass the AVR's pollution is to use the pre-outs to feed the line inputs on the sub, and then connect the sub's line outputs to inputs on the AVR.

 

[KahunaB14]

Regarding your question about full bass...I have 2 possible answers.
1) There is something called "Extra Bass" which "enables/disables" extra bass. I don't think this is what you are referring to. I have used that but the bass sounds bloated and muddy.

2) If I change the fronts from "Small" to "Large" I get full range on the RF-62II's AND in addition to that the sub is still working if memory serves - though I have no idea what the sub crossover defaults to in that case.

I will tinker when I get home to confirm #2.

I would think the RF-62II's + RC-62II + Sub would be more than enough as well...
so GREAT IDEA on the Pure Direct...I didn't think of that...I will try this when I get off work and report back.
I am not sure I understand the last bit about feeding the sub-preout to the sub and then out of the sub back into the AVR. Regardless I will try that other stuff first.

Many thanks to Irvrobinson & ShadyJ for helping me try to achieve sound bliss.

 

[shadyJ]

Regarding your question about full bass...I have 2 possible answers.
1) There is something called "Extra Bass" which "enables/disables" extra bass. I don't think this is what you are referring to. I have used that but the bass sounds bloated and muddy.

2) If I change the fronts from "Small" to "Large" I get full range on the RF-62II's AND in addition to that the sub is still working if memory serves - though I have no idea what the sub crossover defaults to in that case.

I will tinker when I get home to confirm #2.

I would think the RF-62II's + RC-62II + Sub would be more than enough as well...
so GREAT IDEA on the Pure Direct...I didn't think of that...I will try this when I get off work and report back.
I am not sure I understand the last bit about feeding the sub-preout to the sub and then out of the sub back into the AVR. Regardless I will try that other stuff first.

Many thanks to Irvrobinson & ShadyJ for helping me try to achieve sound bliss.

One potential problem is to get the kick you are looking for, you might need to have elevated levels in the response at 50 to 150 Hz. But that also might make the bass response unavoidably bloated. So the idea of 'punch' and an even, accurate response might be at odds with each other. You will have to see in measurements what can be done to the sound with equalization.

 

[shadyJ]

Personally, I think with a room of your size, which isn't very big volumetrically, a pair of RF62IIs and even one sub should provide everything you're looking for in terms of impact.

'Everything anyone is looking for in terms of impact' is purely a personal metric. For me, if the system isn't able to leave me feeling dizziness and nausea and hasn't done lasting damage to my vestibular system, than it is simply not adequate enough for my needs.

Also, I am not sure what processing on the AVR could really be killing his mid-bass impact unless there is some kind of compression going on like a 'Dynamic Volume' setting.

 

[Irvrobinson]

'Everything anyone is looking for in terms of impact' is purely a personal metric. For me, if the system isn't able to leave me feeling dizziness and nausea and hasn't done lasting damage to my vestibular system, than it is simply not adequate enough for my needs.

Also, I am not sure what processing on the AVR could really be killing his mid-bass impact unless there is some kind of compression going on like a 'Dynamic Volume' setting.

At least quote me correctly, I said everything "you're" looking for, not "anyone". If you want to blow your ears out at 115db, go for it.

I think YPAO could be depressing the mid-to-upper bass. Maybe.

 

[shadyJ]

If you want to blow your ears out at 115db, go for it.

115dB? Pff, that just barely wakes me up. Let's talk about 125dB and maybe I will start to pay attention!

 

[KahunaB14]

To your point ShadyJ - I may be under the impression that 90w rms / ch receiver and RF-62II will give me similar kick drum SPL's as back in the day when I would go to electronic raves. And that is probably too much to expect without running external amps and more full range speakers with dual 8" or 10" woofers running at like 300 w rms.

I do have YPAO volume and Adaptive DRC enabled - both play with high and low frequency boosting when listening at low volume levels. It may be mucking up the works. I will try turning them off in addition to using Pure Direct and see if it gives me the desired effect.

Stay tuned and thanks for all the support - I clearly joined the right forum.

 

[Irvrobinson]

115dB? Pff, that just barely wakes me up. Let's talk about 125dB and maybe I will start to pay attention!

Cool. You’re deaf, and you review subs by tactile impact. You had me fooled.

 

[shadyJ]

To your point ShadyJ - I may be under the impression that 90w rms / ch receiver and RF-62II will give me similar kick drum SPL's as back in the day when I would go to electronic raves. And that is probably too much to expect without running external amps and more full range speakers with dual 8" or 10" woofers running at like 300 w rms.

I do have YPAO volume and Adaptive DRC enabled - both play with high and low frequency boosting when listening at low volume levels. It may be mucking up the works. I will try turning them off in addition to using Pure Direct and see if it gives me the desired effect.

Stay tuned and thanks for all the support - I clearly joined the right forum.

Pure direct might actually turn off the LFE, in which case the speakers do everything and the sub does nothing.

And yeah, you system will not match rave systems in mid-bass, not at all. Those bass bins could hit 130dB at 2m with enough amplification. A totally different animal than your speakers or sub. Your speakers will not be able to match that kind of SPL no matter how much amplification you give them, they will die if you try for that kind of output level. You would need a stack of ten PB12_NSDs to get near the mid bass output of just a single high-sensitivity bass bin, and those rave systems had a bunch of bass bins (at least the good ones did). My recommendation, if you want to recreate get a 15" from Hsu, Rythmik, or Monoprice Monolith, place it right behind the listening seat, and run the sub hot. Don't forget, you are also going to need the right tunes!