Paradigm S1 v2 vs Salk ST RT

[KEW]

Note: To avoid confusion, I'll point out up front that ST = SongTower RT (ribbon tweeter option), S1 = Paradigm Signature S1, v2.

The Paradigm S1 v2's arrived a day before the Salks, so they are both new to me. As a recap; I am currently putting together two systems. I am committed to one bookshelf system (2.1) for WAF and the other can be whatever I want. Based on everything I have read (esp. Nuance's "Journey"), it made sense to try out the Salk SongTowers.
For the bookshelf speakers, after exhausting local store options, I have been using Audiogon to buy used, audition, then resell. This works okay for bookshelf speakers since they are small and my cost is essentially the cost of shipping one-way. My bookshelf quest is pretty mature. Thus far, I have worked through 11 pairs of speakers and the Paradigm S1's are the best bookshelf to my ear thus far. After listening to the ST's, I think the Paradigm S2 may be my next move on the bookshelfs.

The ST's are well respected speakers. However, the amazingly small S1's are not push overs. Please keep in mind that when I say one speaker is better than the other, we are talking the kind of difference that I, personally, do not believe you could detect without having both pairs in the same room at the same time.

Bass - I wasn't sure how to handle this. Obviously, the little speakers are not in the same league as the ST's. The S1's roll off at 73Hz (-2dB). My intent is to use the S1's in a 2.1 system. The difference in the depth of bass presented too much of a distraction, so I added my SVS SB-12Plus subwoofer into the mix. I tried the ST's alone, but this gave the reverse situation where the fullness of the S1's with sub overwhelmed other aspects. I hooked the sub in with the ST's and played around with tuning for a while to end up with the crossover set at 80Hz for both. After doing this, I really did not notice any substantial difference in bass and I did not make an effort to evaluate the low end since I have modified it. As a side note, I was pleased that both sets blended with the sub as well as they did.

Treble - From my perspective, most speakers do pretty well with everything else, but it is this high end that separates the wheat from the chaff.
I am absolutely delighted to own both of these pairs of speakers. Their top ends make them truly special! My 2.1 quest has guided me to the Paradigm Be (beryllium) tweeters as a tweeter having clear, realistic high frequency extension. Until I heard the Be tweeters, nothing had it right. Most speakers seemed to fall off on the high end. The Paradigm Studio v5 tweeter has good extension, but it missed the boat on being clear - it seemed as if they were just good at "faking" it. The Be tweeter filled the gap getting damn close to actually standing there when the triangle or chimes are struck. It just makes me grin! This was my biggest concern about the ST RT! I knew the ribbon tweeters would be very good, but if they fell short of the Be tweeters, it would be a disappointment. I would go so far as to say the sound was almost identical. Whenever I heard strongly voiced high pitched steel, I would think "WOW, the other speaker can't do that", rewind, and either would nail it!
The beauty is that they both do this without listening fatigue!
They both had all of the shimmer and shine! The difference is that the ST's had just a touch more air.
The Salk's get the nod for the top end by a slight margin.

If anyone is looking at the SongTower and trying to decide between the standard and the Ribbon Tweeter for the Salk SoundTower, auditioning the much more readily available Paradigm Be tweeter would give a taste of how the RT sounds (IMHO).

Here are some good test spots for the type of treble which both of these speakers eclipse any others I have ever heard:
The Ed Palermo Big Band - "Take Your Clothes Off When You Dance" Track 1@6:38; Track 5@5:16. (Ed Palermo is a Jazz Band that performs the music of Frank Zappa, it has very well recorded cymbals and chimes)
Eric Clapton - "Unplugged" Track 4 (Tears in Heaven) has a well recorded triangle which is played throughout the track (rewind for proper comparison - the strikes vary).

Midrange - I saved this for last, because it has been the most troublesome aspect of these speakers to characterize. While the treble was incredibly similar, the midrange really showed some differences. About 80% of the time, I could tell which speaker I was listening to based on the midrange. My setup allows instant switching. With other pairs of speakers, I could often lose track of which speaker I was listening to (a good thing for attempting to be "blind").
I first listened to Steely Dan - "Aja". No contest! The Salks get the nod!
But then, as I listened to a variety of materials there were spots where the S1's sounded better. The ST's were more frequently better, but not always.
The Salks have more ambiance (I hope that is the right word, it is like a very slight touch of reverb which gives the sound of being in a studio, etc).
As I said, the Salk's rule on "Aja". They gave a wide and excellent soundstage which nicely fell in with the polished clean sound of this album.
In comparison, the Paradigms sounded a bit thin and congested.

While listening to Ed Palermo, the variety of sound would have me go either way between the ST's and the S1's. On track 5, there is a saxophone solo at 0:17. At the start of this solo, the ST sounds stellar, that ambiance gives the sax just a touch of the fantastic sound of a solitary sax being played in an empty alleyway. However, later in the same solo, there is a spot where the saxophonist is mouthing (bending) a lower note (0:59) and the S1's lack of ambiance sounds better rooted and more realistic.
Another interesting place where I experienced better sound from the S1's is Rosanne Cash "Interiors". On track 9 (I Want a Cure), Rosanne's voice sounds more natural on the S1's. To venture a premise, it sounds like the recording engineer "enhanced" her voice by adding a little ambiance. This "enhancement" plays well on the Paradigm, but it seems overblown on the ST. I have no idea if that actually happened, but if the engineer was listening to monitors which sounded like the S1's it would make sense to add that ambiance!
I have been talking about spots where the S1's shine, but need to keep things in perspective. I definitely prefer the ST's to the S1's; however, you would find me grinning a lot while listening to either.

Overall, I am tickled pink! If either of these speakers had really spanked the other, it would have been a major frustration. To have gambled on the Salk's and lost would have been a bit expensive. Conversely, if the S1's were not competitive, I would have been concerned that a high quality bookshelf 2.1 system might not be attainable.
The Salk ST RT's made enough of a case for better sound that I will try the Paradigm S2. The S1's are a sealed speaker measuring 7"W X 11"H and it is just cool getting so much sound out of them, but I hope the added size and porting of the S2 might help it capture a bit of the ambiance of the ST. The bookshelf S2's cost about the same as a ST with the ribbon tweeter. If you wanted a floorstanding Paradigm from the Signature series you would be beyond the cost of the ST. The ST RT is a great value in my book.

 

[Davemcc]

Thanks for the review. I'm a big fan of the Song Tower ribbon version since I heard them. I have only heard the Paradigm S8 and my only real complaint about them is something that I can only speculate is cabinet resonance in the mid range. I don't know if that's a true characterization of my complaint but I do think that having the same drivers in a bookshelf version would eliminate the complaint that I have, for my taste.

I will surmise based on my experience with the S8 and the nature of your review that the S1 or S2 is a speaker that I should find the opportunity to hear.

 

[oppman99]

As I've come to expect, a very nice write up KEW. I appreciate the time it takes. I've always wanted to audition a ribbon tweeter, but never had the opportunity. I am a big fan of Be tweeters though. Thanks!

 

[davidtwotrees]

Were the costs of the speakers close to one another?

 

[Swerd]

Thanks for the excellent review. All your audition work has paid off well – you now have two pairs of excellent speakers. Enjoy them!

I own SongTowers with the standard dome tweeter, and I've listened to ST RTs and am aware of their differences. To my ears, the differences are subtle, but I have learned that others seem to hear a bigger difference. Both share the outstanding midrange sound that you described so nicely. I've never heard the Paradigms nor anything with a Be tweeter, so it was good that you compared them to something I know.

Did you get a chance to compare the midrange and treble dispersion of your two speakers? You probably can't measure their off-axis frequency response, but you could compare how wide their sweet spots are, or walk around the room while listening to them while directly in front of or off to one side and listen to see the differences. Be aware that MTM speakers like the STs have a defined vertical radiation pattern. When you stand up, you probably will be above the best zone for listening. Depending on how tall your stands are for the Paradigms, the same may be true for them.

I like how you handled the obvious differences in bass response of the two speakers. A direct comparison would hardly be fair. Just the same, I'm curious to know what you think of the STs bass response without any subwoofer. I think it is one of their outstanding features, and it's fun to read your audio descriptions. You're good at that.

I realize you now have the Paradigm S1s as bookshelf speakers and are very happy with them, but had you considered the Salk SongSurround I bookshelf speakers? They are slightly larger in size (8" wide, 13" tall and 10" deep) and in my opinion they are the bookshelf speaker that most closely resembles the sound of the STs. They share the same drivers and crossover designer. Except for the bass depth, they sound like siblings.

 

[KEW]

Were the costs of the speakers close to one another?

I believe the Paradigm S1 v2 MSRP = $1800
The ST MSRP = $1700 plus $700 (Ribbon Tweeter upgrade) = $2400
But for an honest comparison you'd want to add $300 (my guess) for Paradigm speaker stands for the S1's (they do not have flat bottoms so jury-rigging a plain vanilla stand would be wrong, IMHO). That makes S1 = $2100
Also, you'd have to add a sub to the S1's while the ST could live without it.
Before I listened to them with a sub, I was thinking one sub for the ST's vs two subs for the S1's (given a 100Hz-120Hz crossover on the S1's). But the S1's did pretty good with an 80Hz crossover, I didn't spend time really tuning the bass, but I think it would end up at 80 or 100, not 120 and therefore think one sub might be okay.
Realistically you should get some discount off of the Paradigms, whereas the Salks are at a set price like any ID speakers.
I was lucky and found both of my sets of speakers on Audiogon. I got 30% off on the S1's (remember they are now "obsolete") and 14% off of the Salks.
SO, after these other factors, the proper answer is "It depends..."

 

[KEW]

I own SongTowers with the standard dome tweeter, and I've listened to ST RTs and am aware of their differences. To my ears, the differences are subtle, but I have learned that others seem to hear a bigger difference. Both share the outstanding midrange sound that you described so nicely. I've never heard the Paradigms nor anything with a Be tweeter, so it was good that you compared them to something I know.

I know exactly where you are coming from. I had a friend over the night before and we compared notes on the S1's vs the RBH 61-lse. We both agreed that the RBH had some advantage in the midrange, but I preferred the S1's and he preferred the RBH's. For me, the difference in the treble is huge and easily outweighed the midrange difference. For him, the S1's treble was better, but only marginally better - not enough of a factor to outweigh the RBH's midrange advantage.

Did you get a chance to compare the midrange and treble dispersion of your two speakers? You probably can't measure their off-axis frequency response, but you could compare how wide their sweet spots are, or walk around the room while listening to them while directly in front of or off to one side and listen to see the differences. Be aware that MTM speakers like the STs have a defined vertical radiation pattern. When you stand up, you probably will be above the best zone for listening. Depending on how tall your stands are for the Paradigms, the same may be true for them.

I did my listening from the sweet spot, but have noticed that the Paradigms have better dispersion. That does not reflect too poorly on the Salks. I have never seen dispersion charts as good as the S1's:
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/paradigm_signature_s1_v2/

I like how you handled the obvious differences in bass response of the two speakers. A direct comparison would hardly be fair. Just the same, I'm curious to know what you think of the STs bass response without any subwoofer. I think it is one of their outstanding features, and it's fun to read your audio descriptions. You're good at that.

Thanks!
I'll see if I can't work in a listen sans sub this weekend.

I realize you now have the Paradigm S1s as bookshelf speakers and are very happy with them, but had you considered the Salk SongSurround I bookshelf speakers? They are slightly larger in size (8" wide, 13" tall and 10" deep) and in my opinion they are the bookshelf speaker that most closely resembles the sound of the STs. They share the same drivers and crossover designer. Except for the bass depth, they sound like siblings.

LOL - It's all your fault!!! You (and one or two others) had suggested the SongSurrounds before. I went to the Salk website and read about them. I was a little concerned about the treble - there is no ribbon offering, and I have seen some charts which showed a slight roll-off before 20kHz. I don't know how high is high enough to be "right" to my ear. In the meantime the link I had by-passed, the one to the SongTowers, was singing a siren song and I realized there was no way I could place an order with Salk and it not be for the ST's! I exchanged emails with Jim Salk and Dennis Murphy, concluding that the ribbon was the way to go. I was mulling this over, content to finish my bookshelf speaker quest. However, when a pair of ST's(!) with ribbon tweeters(!!) in Cherry (!!!) popped up on Audiogon, I decided it must be divine providence and who am I to argue!

To me, getting the SongSurrounds for my second system would be a little like having a Mustang Cobra and then buying a Mustang GT for my second car. As long as both sets are very good, variety is better than duplication, IMHO.
I will be trying the S2's vs the S1's as my final speaker comparo (mentioned in the last paragraph of the OP). Having the same Be tweeter, but with the larger mid, cabinet size increase, and going from Aluminum to mdf cabinet piques my curiosity - there have to be some changes in the character of the sound, and I want to see how they compare. I have looked all over the net, but cannot find any A-B comparisons of the S1 vs S2!

 

[Swerd]

LOL - It's all your fault!!! You (and one or two others) had suggested the SongSurrounds before. I went to the Salk website and read about them. I was a little concerned about the treble - there is no ribbon offering, and I have seen some charts which showed a slight roll-off before 20kHz. I don't know how high is high enough to be "right" to my ear. In the meantime the link I had by-passed, the one to the SongTowers, was singing a siren song and I realized there was no way I could place an order with Salk and it not be for the ST's! I exchanged emails with Jim Salk and Dennis Murphy, concluding that the ribbon was the way to go. I was mulling this over, content to finish my bookshelf speaker quest. However, when a pair of ST's(!) with ribbon tweeters(!!) in Cherry (!!!) popped up on Audiogon, I decided it must be divine providence and who am I to argue!

So you snagged those ST RTs on Audiogon! You certainly did very well.

I didn’t know the Paradigm S1s cost that much, $1800 retail. They are double the price of Song Surround Is and $500 less than the starting price of Salk HT1s. How much more are the S2s?

I did my listening from the sweet spot, but have noticed that the Paradigms have better dispersion. That does not reflect too poorly on the Salks. I have never seen dispersion charts as good as the S1's:
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/paradigm_signature_s1_v2/

Those FR curves are impressive. The Canadian NRC measurements are very reliable. I wish they would measure STs. So far there are only Dennis Murphy’s own measurements (below), and those done by AH in their review of the STs. I've not seen FR curves with ST RTs, but I would expect them to be smoother in the treble, but have a bit less off-axis response.

These are Dennis Murphy’s measurements of his dome tweeter STs. He only measured on-axis and about 60° off-axis. I assume that at 15-30-45° the curves would fit somewhere in between.

 

[KEW]

So you snagged those ST RTs on Audiogon! You certainly did very well.

I didn’t know the Paradigm S1s cost that much, $1800 retail. They are double the price of Song Surround Is and $500 less than the starting price of Salk HT1s. How much more are the S2s?

Those FR curves are impressive. The Canadian NRC measurements are very reliable. I wish they would measure STs. So far there are only Dennis Murphy’s own measurements (below), and those done by AH in their review of the STs. I've not seen FR curves with ST RTs, but I would expect them to be smoother in the treble, but have a bit less off-axis response.

These are Dennis Murphy’s measurements of his dome tweeter STs. He only measured on-axis and about 60° off-axis. I assume that at 15-30-45° the curves would fit somewhere in between.

Yeah, the Signature series is pricey it went up some since they were released - I believe Paradigm has 5 tiers. Signature is their flagship line. The S2 v2's go for $2400, I believe, which puts them right in line with the ST with RT.

Both speakers have very competitive FR curves and the ST w/dome tweeter has outstanding dispersion.
The S1's curve is really weird! It takes the dispersion hit below 2,000Hz then stays flat up to 20k. I've never seen that before. It seems a little suspect. If it wasn't from such a well established lab, I would assume mistakes were made! I like that Soundstage uses the Canadian NRC labs, but wish they would at least comment on unusual things!

The ST with RT are much better for dispersion than I expected. I had listened to one of the top-end (electrostatic?) Martin Logans at Best Buy, and the highs disappeared substantially when you stood up, almost as if a low pass filter was engaged. The dispersion of the RT is far better, and is much closer to a dome than it is to those Martin Logans.

 

[Swerd]

…The S1's curve is really weird! It takes the dispersion hit below 2,000Hz then stays flat up to 20k. I've never seen that before. It seems a little suspect. If it wasn't from such a well established lab, I would assume mistakes were made! I like that Soundstage uses the Canadian NRC labs, but wish they would at least comment on unusual things!

I'm not sure I understand you when you say it takes the dispersion hit below 2,000 Hz. Compared to on-axis, those S1 FR curves show the 15° and 30° off-axis curves fall off below ~3,000 Hz. Above 3,000, the curves converge until above 10,000. That's what I would expect to see in a 2-way speaker with a 1" dome tweeter where the crossover point appears to be ~3,000 Hz. Below the crossover point, the woofer predominates, and the 5" (correct?) woofer begins to loose off-axis response above 1,000 Hz. Where you see the 3 curves converge at ~3,000 Hz is where the tweeter takes over.

You can see essentially the same thing in the ST curves, with the convergence taking place at the ~2500 Hz crossover point.

A general rule-of-thumb is that a cone or dome driver has good dispersion with wavelengths longer than the diameter of the cone or dome. A wavelength of 5" corresponds to ~2700 Hz.

 

[KEW]

I'm not sure I understand you when you say it takes the dispersion hit below 2,000 Hz.

I am referring to the high frequency roll off as you move off-axis. What I mean is that after 2000 Hz, the curve stays largely flat all of the way up. The dispersion of the tweeter up to 19,000Hz is generally level even at 75° off-axis. This, I have not noticed in another FR plot

This is more like what I am used to seeing:
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/dynaudio_confidence_c4/
See how at 6kHz the SPL begins to diverge at 30° off-axis and continues to diverge as the frequency increases?

Another way to look at it is the S1's SPL at 75° off axis is ~9dB below the on-axis SPL at 2kHz. At 20kHz, the S1's SPL at 75° off-axis is still ~9dB below the on-axis SPL.

The on-axis and 60° curves for the SongTower w/dome stay within 3-4 dB all of the way up to 11kHz (which is quite impressive) but they are 12dB apart at 20kHz.

Of course, 60° & 75° off-axis is pretty outrageous in the first place!

 

[KEW]

and the 5" (correct?) woofer

Try 6" in a 6.75" wide cabinet.
It is an interesting speaker design!

 

[Warpdrv]

Thanks KEW for taking the time to post this excellent comparo of 2 truly outstanding speakers.... though I haven't heard the S1's, I have done some extensive listening with the Sig S6's & S8's, both of which are seriously excellent speakers IMO, and Nuance/Brandon has had his speakers (ST RT's) at my house a few times already where we pitted them against my Sig S4's .v1...

Both are awesome speakers, but the ST's certainly took the cake with that Ribbon sounding so incredibly sweet to my ears.. and I agree with you that the Be tweet and the RT are so very very close in sonic nature, one would have a hard time being disappointed with either IMO... I look forward to upgrading to the Be tweeters myself..

Nuance was just over last night, helping me setup my 2 new TC LMS's - man what a painful bunch of mini disasters we went through for that. But they are up and running now... AWESOME !!!