Paradigm dealer/warranty issue - be aware...

[vworm1097]

For several weeks now i have been searching for a new pair of HT speakers. I had pretty well decided on a set of Paradigm 40.v4's. Then I joined this Forum and began really learning some valuable information about all speakers in general. I posted a few questions on another thread "New Paradigm .v5" but decided I didn't want to hi-jack it, so here we are and here is my story.

I had visited my local Paradigm dealer numerous times and established a good working relationship just as members here had suggested. My HT system was going to begin with a of a pair of Studio 40 .v4's and a Velodyne sub since that was what he recomened. I really liked the Studio 60's but they just seemed a little to big. I went ahead and pruchased the sub at what he considered a great price. He had another customer that was supposed to be traiding up his .v3 40's after he repaired a cosmetic issue with the cabinet as a result of it getting knocked off the stand. After it was repaired and if it passed my personal inspection the dealer said he would sell the used/repaired set of .v3 40's to me at a great price. He also gave me a price on a set of new .v4 40's at that same time, which made the used pair seem like a steal of a deal. It was going to be a week or so until the other customer could bring the used pair into the shop which was no big deal.

After reading about the New .v5's I was dieing to see them in person and just so happened to be going in a few days so I contacted an out of town dealer where I was going to be. Since Paradigm no longer makes the 40 I really became interested in the 60 now that the overall size had been reduced. This dealer had the New .v5 60's in stock and had them on 'sale'. However, this dealer had a new pair of .v4 40's that he wanted to deal on because obviously he wanted to clear out his stock of .v4's. He shot me a price that was more than $400 cheaper than my local dealers. For some reason, as good a deal as that sounded, I just couldn't pull the trigger and do it. I felt like I owed it to my local dealer to give him a shot at matching the other dealers price. After the weekend, I contacted my local dealer. He said the customer with the used pair of speakers decided to keep them. I told him that was OK with me and then told him of the conversation I had with the out of town dealer. He immediatly asked me if I had bought them, to which I said no. I told him I wanted to give him a chance to match that price (or atleast come close). He seemed offended that I had even contacted another dealer about the speakers. Even after telling him my intent never was to go out price shopping, I just wanted to see a new pair of the .v5 60's (which he did not have in stock and could not tell me when he would be getting them in) but he seemed pissy with me now. I asked him if he could match the other dealers price which only infurriated him more. He told me that he gave me a good price on the speakers and had come a few hundred dollars off MSRP. That being a given, the other dealer still had his best price beat by over $400 dollars. He then told me that if I bought them from another dealer that he could not AND would not help me with any warranty issues that might come up. He said this was Paradigm's policy not his. Also, that Paradigm would shut down the out of town dealer for selling in his 'protected' territory.

This morning, I contacted Paradigm customer service to get clerification. I was told that the dealers do have 'protected' territory. If one dealer knowingly sells to a customer from out of state, in another dealers territory, the selling dealer has violated their agreement with Paradigm Corporation and could be in trouble. As far as warranty repairs, Paradigm will not force any dealer to repair any product requiring warranty repair if it was not purchased from that dealer. Paradigm will try to speak with the dealer refusing to repair the product but the dealer has the right to refuse any warrantied repair work if it was not purchased from them. To make sure I was clear, I gave an example of me purchasing a pair of speakers in one state and then moving to another state and once there needing warrantied repair work done. He said the dealer in the new state did not have to honor the warranty since I did not purchase the speakers from him. I told him I thought this was rediculous! If I purchase a car in one state and it needs warranty repair I have the right to take it to ANY dealer in ANY state for this repair. He said he understands this but it is there policy which is in place to help protect the dealers 'territories.' I politely explained to him that I understand the territorie issue but how about fair pricing? There is no reason for two dealer in two ajoinig states to be over $400 off on the price of the same speakers. And then telling me if I do purchase them then they will not be covered by the warranty. He said the price is set by the individual dealers. As my blood pressure began to lower, I realized there was no reason to be getting worked up. I thanked him for his time and explanation of there warranty policy. I told him he had made my decision on which speaker brand to buy easier because it no longer would consist of Paradigm. I also told him I was going to post this incident on the discussion form for other potential buyers to be aware of.

Lets be clear, I am all about helping local businesses. As a consumer I thought I was being polite and went back to my local dealer to give him a chance on selling me some speakers. I guess in Paradigm's eyes I do not have the right to shop I should take what the local dealer is giving me (in this case he was giving it to me in the rear). Because of Paradigm's warranty repair policy I will no longer be purchasing them. I have $2000 to spend and help stimulate the economy, any help on other speaker brands will be greatly appriciated. I am looking to start with two fronts and possibly a center...

 

[jostenmeat]

It is what it is. That said, I don't really care THAT much about speaker warranty. Drivers usually aren't absurdly expensive to replace, and that's if they don't cut you a break when a problem arises.

I never got to auditioning Paradigm, because the sole local dealer is one of those appointment-only, fancy install establishments.

It's just me, but I don't like making appts for auditioning. I just like to stroll in with cd's and notepad in hand. Anyhoo, I avoided the place because it reeked of overpricing.

BUT, if I WAS sure that I really liked any Paradigms, I'd have little problem with buying them used. Again, my need for speaker warranty is not very great.

Too many other brands to list in your budget range. Use search functions.

I just GOOGLED best $2000 speaker, and immediately already found one AH thread.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49898

 

[FIqbal]

If the local dealer is acting like an @hole then I would not bother to buy anything from him at any price. If buying from the out of state dealer saves you some money then you should also be be willing to live with the consequences like warranty serviced by that dealer even if that is little inconvenient. I am in the process of buying a pair of Studio 60 v.4 here in Toronto. The price quoted by dealers in Toronto were all over the place and finally I got the best price from a dealer about 40% off MSRSP. But that dealer is in another town about 70+ km from my place. I would not even bother to take any warranty issues with other dealers quoting higher prices. Why would Paradigm or any one else need to know my address? I intend to buy more stuff from this particular dealer who gave me the best price and patronize him in future. Paradigm like other companies are entitled to set their own policies that may not match your interest. Last year I bought a Boston Acoustics Alarm radio from the USA. The volume knob of the radio did not work from day 1 and BA refused service the item here because it was not purchased in Canada. I took the chance in buying the item in the USA saving some money, but obviously did not work for me. I knew the risk and would be wrong if I blame BA for my trouble.

 

[just-some-guy]

hmmmm, VERY interesting. can anyone confirm the warranty issues ?

I judge my purchaces not only on the product. but the warranty and customer service.
if paradigm chooses to do people that way, they will not be seeing my money.

some compamies act like they are the ONLY game intown. sometimes they are. but in the case of speakers. that is FAR FAR from the truth. seems paradgm wants a person to sell their product. not have the product sell itself. seems that method is working fine for them , though.

 

[syd123]

I empathize and understand your frustration. That said, I think I understand why Paradigm does this and I believe that in the long run it helps them maintain their brand.

The lifeblood of this hobby is live demonstrations. ..To know what to buy one needs to hear speakers in person and in a decent listening environment. ..By offering it's dealers protected territories, Paradigm hopes to keep dealers margins high enough so that the brand is carried by quality (and, by necessity, profitable) brick & mortar business. If on the otherhand they allowed dealers to poach for business outside of their territories, then soon internet sellers would drive prices (margins) to a point where B&M dealers would give up the brand. ..Once this happens, the brand loses it's cache' and looses it's enthusiast following.

People grumble a lot about these policies, but I think our hobby is soon doomed if more companies don't do something drastic to protect the b&m retailer. While I don't fault you for wanting to price-shop, I don't think it would be gouging for a dealer to sell at full MSRP. ..Even if their markup is 50%, that doesn't leave a whole lot of profit for a small volume electronics retailer. B&M audio stores are anything buy highly profitable enterprises. ...Witness how few there are nowadays!

Paradigm is not alone. ..McIntosh, Bryston, Vandersteen are just a few examples of the other brands that have similar policies. While it can be frustrating, it's also why these brands - regardless of whether or not you like them - still have decent brand equity.

Of course, none of this excuses a dealer for treating you poorly.

 

[TheFactor]

You'll probably never need the warranty With paradigm speakers anyway imo . But I can understand your frustration and fortunately for me my dealer is only 20 minutes away but they really dont deal much either. I tried just for fun and was able to only bargain down around 60 dollars a speaker that were over 2000 for the pair . But I guess when you buy a Benz , Porsche or a Ferrari they probably dont discount them much either. I like my Digms so much thats what I would compare them to in the car world and so glad I bought them even though I wasnt able to save 100's of dollars on them they have given me many hours of enjoyment and going strong

 

[mike c]

if you really like paradigm. go buy it from the next state ... at 400 less.
but don't tell this other a-hole.

otherwise, there are a million other options for you.

 

[TheFactor]

if you really like paradigm. go buy it from the next state ... at 400 less.
but don't tell this other a-hole.

otherwise, there are a million other options for you.

X 2 Well said Mike

 

[doug1223]

In my search for speakers I found the people @ Paradigm to be rude also, although the local dealer was friendly and helpful. I want to know that the company stands 100% behind their product and more importantly the customer and I sure did not get that feeling either. The mark up on speakers is considerable and I feel they should bend over back wards for your business. Apparently business is good enough for them that they do not feel the same way. Who knows, maybe we were just the minority who had a negative experience. Good luck with whatever you decide to do !!!!

 

[TheFactor]

In my search for speakers I found the people @ Paradigm to be rude also, although the local dealer was friendly and helpful. I want to know that the company stands 100% behind their product and more importantly the customer and I sure did not get that feeling either. The mark up on speakers is considerable and I feel they should bend over back wards for your business. Apparently business is good enough for them that they do not feel the same way. Who knows, maybe we were just the minority who had a negative experience. Good luck with whatever you decide to do !!!!

I think they feel and do have excellent performance speaker and they do imo . I havent had to call Paradigm for anything really but my local dealer is about the nicest you'll find and helpful but like mentioned above are firm on there prices FTW FREDS SOUND OF MUSIC/PARADIGM

 

[johnrmarty]

The push and pull

Hey Guys,

I noticed that about 6 years ago people really started getting a lot less scared of purchasing electronics on the internet. This created a snowball effect that began with dealers listing all their equipment on Ebay and tons of other online outlets for as little as they could. Dealers started to realize that if they had the best price online they would capture market share from all over the country. They thought that even if they were making a couple bucks on every product they would make up for it in volume.

Dealers were “supposed” to sell products for full retail, but consumers were shopping nationally for the best price especially without having to pay tax and the margins eroded to a point of no return. Manufacturers didn’t even know how to stop the erosion and now many car audio manufacturers, distributors, and stores are shutting their doors for good or trying to skate by with 5% margins.

I always think it’s funny when people say that by paying full price they are getting screwed because what they don't realize is that when you have a retail store and tons of overhead you typically have well trained staff and great service. Customers can come in and spend hours listening to different speakers and amplifiers and in the end they go elsewhere to buy. As this is frustrating I can relate and realize that customers from all over the US are calling us to save money off of their local dealers as well, but where do you draw the line as a dealer. Becoming a reseller for Paradigm is hard to do (as it is for any protected line) and they require big commitments. Reps from Paradigm will assess the look and feel of your store to see if you are a good fit for them (this sometimes takes months). Next they stress the importance of selling at full retail price and tell you that if they catch you selling below MSRP or selling out of your territory that you will be stripped of your dealership. Actually it seems like every electronics manufacturer says these things. What’s most frustrating is that if you are lucky enough to own a massive chain with online presence the normal rules don’t apply (because you are an asset).


Let’s say for example that Chain “X” sells protected products online for a discount anywhere in the US and a small dealer turns them in. The small dealer calls his rep to check on the status of Chain “X” and the rep says “we fired that customer service agent and it won’t happen again”, but it does. Smaller dealers on the other hand get made as examples for selling out of territory and get stripped of their right to sell. Dealer agreements are lengthy and have many loopholes…They say things like “No online sales”, but they say nothing about “phone sales” and crossing territory lines is ok if there are no other dealers in the area. As a dealer in this economy I believe that making a little money is better than not making anything at all. If a customer calls you from California and you spend an hour or more on the phone explaining the differences from one speaker to another haven’t you earned their business?... Especially if they don’t like their local dealer? On the other hand this becomes a slippery slope because once customers knows they can get a better deal they try to pawn you off of another dealer. Then some dealers start listing their products online…then more…then you have a similar erosion that happened in the TV , or car audio industry. Manufacturers catch on at the very end and have now way of stopping it.

There are really two sides to this story…the customer wants the best price possible and the dealer wants to sell as many products as they can. In the case of Vworm1097 he gave his local dealer a chance and that dealer chose to stand up and say no. On the other hand the dealer lost business because of pride or maybe just that he thought that his line is well protected. Let me give you an example…I was making a quote for Sonance in-wall speakers throughout a large house. I felt confident that nobody was selling the speakers online (at least my rep told me so) so I charged full price. After the customer reviewed the quote for a couple days he came back and said that our price was far too high because he found the speakers for a lot less online…Now I am in a situation where I look like the bad guy “trying to screw my customer” and that’s not it at all. We obviously matched the price, but it is embarrassing.

Like I said I would rather make some money than no money at all, but there are a couple different sides to this story with quite a few complexities which I hope I illustrated. The bottom line is that there is a constant push and pull between manufacturers and stores both on the internet and brick/mortar. In the old days you had to compete in your local market and this slowly dwindling philosophy is making way for other methods of sales that many manufacturers and dealers are not quite ready for.

 

[xrodney]

Strange that B&W dont have any problem with this.
Their speakers are sold at least in EU for about same price where ever you buy them and as far as i know they they are going to help you even if you need repair or RMA speakers not bought from them.

 

[neckthrough]

The internet has made local economic boundaries all but disappear. Many customers have adapted to this new way of doing business, and are willing to give up some of the traditional advantages of shopping at B&M stores in lieu of better up-front prices. Businesses need adapt to this new line of thinking or risk becoming obsolete. Trying to desperately cling on to an antiquated way of doing business is only going to lead to disaster.

It's true that margins shrinking to ridiculously low levels isn't healthy for businesses either, but I think this is partly because of the immaturity of the e-economy -- people are suddenly finding themselves in this brave new open world and don't know how to deal with it. IID is still a little bit of a novelty in certain businesses, and it'll probably take a few more years for attitudes to mature.

As a customer, I would definitely prefer to shop at a B&M store, but there's a limit to the premium I'm willing to pay for that. I can imagine myself paying 10% more for the privilege of dealing with a real person, but when something that Circuit City is selling for $125 is available for $50 at many an online store, I find myself unsurprised and unsympathetic seeing them go out of business.

Disclaimer >>> I'm speaking primarily from the point of view of a customer, and using my very simplistic grasp of economics.

 

[TheFactor]

Strange that B&W dont have any problem with this.
Their speakers are sold at least in EU for about same price where ever you buy them and as far as i know they they are going to help you even if you need repair or RMA speakers not bought from them.

Probably due to the fact there mark up on those is much higher like double or tripple...maybe more .

 

[johnrmarty]

Paradigm may have told you about their strict warranty policy based on territories but it is a bit of smoke and mirrors. If you live in Ohio and buy over the phone from a guy in Texas and you need warranty work the dealer in Ohio (your local dealer) can refuse to do the work for whatever reason. This has nothing to do with Paradigm as a corporation it has to do with the rules set forth by the owner of that particular store/company. I dont know why a dealer would refuse service as it could potentially lead to business that may not have otherwise come about, but it is "their choice". If you buy a set of tower speakers and blow out a driver all you have to do is call the company that you got the speakers from in the other state. That dealer will order the replacement part from Paradigm which he can then send to you....simple as that. For the most part dealers that sell you equipment out of state lines have a vested interest in return business even if the original purchase was over the phone...

 

[viper359]

FIqbal

Thanks for your reply, and since you found a dealer outside of Toronto, I would love for you to share that info with me if you liked them. I too am searching to buy Paradigm products, and I am getting seriously jerked around in the Toronto Area. I have a feeling it is because they are built here, and so dealers don't really care.

If this company outside of Toronto, in another city was very fair to you, I would LOVE to make contact with these people. Word of mouth is best advertising, this could turn into proof for them. I cannot Private Message you, as I am too new a member, and I don't have the required posts.

 

[FIqbal]

address

Check PM for address.

 

[TjMV3]

I had my fill of Paradigm and Anthem's "Warranty Policies" back in 2004.

I'll never buy a damn thing with the Paradigm or Anthem name on it. Or any product even remotely associated with those guys.

Oh they're real nice to you before you purchase. But after you purchase and need help with one of their products; well, let's just say their attention and concern isn't so focused.

For several weeks now i have been searching for a new pair of HT speakers. I had pretty well decided on a set of Paradigm 40.v4's. Then I joined this Forum and began really learning some valuable information about all speakers in general. I posted a few questions on another thread "New Paradigm .v5" but decided I didn't want to hi-jack it, so here we are and here is my story.

I had visited my local Paradigm dealer numerous times and established a good working relationship just as members here had suggested. My HT system was going to begin with a of a pair of Studio 40 .v4's and a Velodyne sub since that was what he recomened. I really liked the Studio 60's but they just seemed a little to big. I went ahead and pruchased the sub at what he considered a great price. He had another customer that was supposed to be traiding up his .v3 40's after he repaired a cosmetic issue with the cabinet as a result of it getting knocked off the stand. After it was repaired and if it passed my personal inspection the dealer said he would sell the used/repaired set of .v3 40's to me at a great price. He also gave me a price on a set of new .v4 40's at that same time, which made the used pair seem like a steal of a deal. It was going to be a week or so until the other customer could bring the used pair into the shop which was no big deal.

After reading about the New .v5's I was dieing to see them in person and just so happened to be going in a few days so I contacted an out of town dealer where I was going to be. Since Paradigm no longer makes the 40 I really became interested in the 60 now that the overall size had been reduced. This dealer had the New .v5 60's in stock and had them on 'sale'. However, this dealer had a new pair of .v4 40's that he wanted to deal on because obviously he wanted to clear out his stock of .v4's. He shot me a price that was more than $400 cheaper than my local dealers. For some reason, as good a deal as that sounded, I just couldn't pull the trigger and do it. I felt like I owed it to my local dealer to give him a shot at matching the other dealers price. After the weekend, I contacted my local dealer. He said the customer with the used pair of speakers decided to keep them. I told him that was OK with me and then told him of the conversation I had with the out of town dealer. He immediatly asked me if I had bought them, to which I said no. I told him I wanted to give him a chance to match that price (or atleast come close). He seemed offended that I had even contacted another dealer about the speakers. Even after telling him my intent never was to go out price shopping, I just wanted to see a new pair of the .v5 60's (which he did not have in stock and could not tell me when he would be getting them in) but he seemed pissy with me now. I asked him if he could match the other dealers price which only infurriated him more. He told me that he gave me a good price on the speakers and had come a few hundred dollars off MSRP. That being a given, the other dealer still had his best price beat by over $400 dollars. He then told me that if I bought them from another dealer that he could not AND would not help me with any warranty issues that might come up. He said this was Paradigm's policy not his. Also, that Paradigm would shut down the out of town dealer for selling in his 'protected' territory.

This morning, I contacted Paradigm customer service to get clerification. I was told that the dealers do have 'protected' territory. If one dealer knowingly sells to a customer from out of state, in another dealers territory, the selling dealer has violated their agreement with Paradigm Corporation and could be in trouble. As far as warranty repairs, Paradigm will not force any dealer to repair any product requiring warranty repair if it was not purchased from that dealer. Paradigm will try to speak with the dealer refusing to repair the product but the dealer has the right to refuse any warrantied repair work if it was not purchased from them. To make sure I was clear, I gave an example of me purchasing a pair of speakers in one state and then moving to another state and once there needing warrantied repair work done. He said the dealer in the new state did not have to honor the warranty since I did not purchase the speakers from him. I told him I thought this was rediculous! If I purchase a car in one state and it needs warranty repair I have the right to take it to ANY dealer in ANY state for this repair. He said he understands this but it is there policy which is in place to help protect the dealers 'territories.' I politely explained to him that I understand the territorie issue but how about fair pricing? There is no reason for two dealer in two ajoinig states to be over $400 off on the price of the same speakers. And then telling me if I do purchase them then they will not be covered by the warranty. He said the price is set by the individual dealers. As my blood pressure began to lower, I realized there was no reason to be getting worked up. I thanked him for his time and explanation of there warranty policy. I told him he had made my decision on which speaker brand to buy easier because it no longer would consist of Paradigm. I also told him I was going to post this incident on the discussion form for other potential buyers to be aware of.

Lets be clear, I am all about helping local businesses. As a consumer I thought I was being polite and went back to my local dealer to give him a chance on selling me some speakers. I guess in Paradigm's eyes I do not have the right to shop I should take what the local dealer is giving me (in this case he was giving it to me in the rear). Because of Paradigm's warranty repair policy I will no longer be purchasing them. I have $2000 to spend and help stimulate the economy, any help on other speaker brands will be greatly appriciated. I am looking to start with two fronts and possibly a center...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Man, just for fun, I should contact Def Tech and ask if they will do the same thing as Paradigm.

What about Denon?

If you need repairs, do you have to send your Denon back to the exact same store you bought them from?

 

[RJC]

I had my fill of Paradigm and Anthem's "Warranty Policies" back in 2004.

I'll never buy a damn thing with the Paradigm or Anthem name on it. Or any product even remotely associated with those guys.

Oh they're real nice to you before you purchase. But after you purchase and need help with one of their products; well, let's just say their attention and concern isn't so focused.

I had a very positive experience with Paradigm. I recently discovered a very small paint chip on the back of one of my Signature S1's which were approximately 4 months old. I contacted Paradigm customer service and they told me to bring them to the dealer and have them shipped back. I received a brand new pair 4 business days later. No headaches what so ever.