Organ Subwoofer System....

[Chopin_Guy]

So this might seem like a strange topic but I know there are several of you, with whom I have talked before, who have very experienced technical knowledge of subwoofer systems....and I need some help....

The parish where I am music director is close to the purchase of a new organ. The rep we are working with is actually an engineer and as part of saving over the subwoofer system that are sold by the organ maker---which are grossly over priced---he designs is own. To this I was very interested in learning what drivers and amplifiers he uses.....

The system he specifies is a large ported enclosure that uses two of these 15" drivers:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-469

These two drivers are driven by an O-audio 500watt Bash amp. He claims the system has flat response to 15.5hz and can produce this output to about 110dbl. Our installation will require two of these subs as it a 1,000 seat santuary...

I am a little skeptical of a 500 watt amp being able to produce that kind of output with two of those drivers no matter how efficient and/or large the cabinet design / drivers are -- or is that completely possible in proper enclosure/deisgn??

So my question to you gentlemen is....do you have any design/driver ideas that will be able to provide extreme low distortion and high-output capabilities that will be necessary in pipe-organ reproduction. Keeping in mind the intention is to build TWO of these subs to provide flat, rock-solid performance down to 16hz on full organ 32' Subbasse stop, and fill the sanctuary with authority...

Thank you for the help/ideas....

 

[annunaki]

See my PM. 18" Maelstrom-x 18.0ft^3 tuned to 15hz, 5" x 18" x 50.54" slot vent, +/-3db from 14.5hz to 100hz at 115db & up with only 1000 watts rms!!!!

Be sure to use a 3rd order infrasonic filter at 10hz and a minimum 4th order lowpass at 100hz. The low inductance on the driver allows it to be utilized so high up the frequency range.

 

[WmAx]

I will second the Maelstrom X for a high value system if you want 18" drivers and you can live with the enclosure size in your application. However, you need to have special dampening in an enclosure of this size if the upper band response of the sub is to remain flat in response. That is, the longest dimension(s) of this size cabinet require 6-8" of high density fiberglass or rockwool board; 4-8lb/ft^3 density to be specific.

If you want even higher quality subwoofers, they are available, but of course cost will also increase. You can also get very high output with much smaller cabinets, but of course, cost is the mediating factor.

-Chris

 

[Chopin_Guy]

Thank you for the responses....I do believe this is organ builder we are going to go with but will have to see when we get closer to actual installation to talk more specifically about the subwoofer design / system.

I believe the price he gives for the two sub systems is $3,200 dollars which seems a bit high given the drivers and amp he uses...not sure how much he is throwing in for materials and all his own labor. I would think for something close to that the walls should be able to be brought down....or something close at least...

 

[TLS Guy]

So this might seem like a strange topic but I know there are several of you, with whom I have talked before, who have very experienced technical knowledge of subwoofer systems....and I need some help....

The parish where I am music director is close to the purchase of a new organ. The rep we are working with is actually an engineer and as part of saving over the subwoofer system that are sold by the organ maker---which are grossly over priced---he designs is own. To this I was very interested in learning what drivers and amplifiers he uses.....

The system he specifies is a large ported enclosure that uses two of these 15" drivers:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-469

These two drivers are driven by an O-audio 500watt Bash amp. He claims the system has flat response to 15.5hz and can produce this output to about 110dbl. Our installation will require two of these subs as it a 1,000 seat santuary...

I am a little skeptical of a 500 watt amp being able to produce that kind of output with two of those drivers no matter how efficient and/or large the cabinet design / drivers are -- or is that completely possible in proper enclosure/deisgn??

So my question to you gentlemen is....do you have any design/driver ideas that will be able to provide extreme low distortion and high-output capabilities that will be necessary in pipe-organ reproduction. Keeping in mind the intention is to build TWO of these subs to provide flat, rock-solid performance down to 16hz on full organ 32' Subbasse stop, and fill the sanctuary with authority...

Thank you for the help/ideas....

If you want to fill the sanctuary with authority, contract with one of the nations fine pipe organ builders. Electronic instruments are a very distant second best.

If you must have an electronic instrument, then a transmission line sub is optimal, as it will encircle the space, just like organ pipes would, so you will fill the space with ease. Space will not be a consideration, as they will take less space than a set of gedackt organ pipes. The result will be similar.

The problem will be the higher frequencies, as loudspeakers can not encircle a space the way organ pipes can and do.

 

[MidnightSensi]

So this might seem like a strange topic but I know there are several of you, with whom I have talked before, who have very experienced technical knowledge of subwoofer systems....and I need some help....

The parish where I am music director is close to the purchase of a new organ. The rep we are working with is actually an engineer and as part of saving over the subwoofer system that are sold by the organ maker---which are grossly over priced---he designs is own. To this I was very interested in learning what drivers and amplifiers he uses.....

The system he specifies is a large ported enclosure that uses two of these 15" drivers:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-469

These two drivers are driven by an O-audio 500watt Bash amp. He claims the system has flat response to 15.5hz and can produce this output to about 110dbl. Our installation will require two of these subs as it a 1,000 seat santuary...

I am a little skeptical of a 500 watt amp being able to produce that kind of output with two of those drivers no matter how efficient and/or large the cabinet design / drivers are -- or is that completely possible in proper enclosure/deisgn??

So my question to you gentlemen is....do you have any design/driver ideas that will be able to provide extreme low distortion and high-output capabilities that will be necessary in pipe-organ reproduction. Keeping in mind the intention is to build TWO of these subs to provide flat, rock-solid performance down to 16hz on full organ 32' Subbasse stop, and fill the sanctuary with authority...

Thank you for the help/ideas....

I wouldn't spend that kind of money and get some DIY put together.

I would buy one or two Danley Sound Labs DTS20s, which are used often in pipe organ reproduction. 95dB sensitivity, 120+dB spl (that would be like three of what that installer wants to build you, in one box) you'll need a lot less power for the output and third-party tested (multiple third party tested, actually) performance. Truth of the matter is, depending on the SPL requirements, one DTS20 may be plenty, and its under 3,000.

You might be able to save money going the DIY route, but by the time you factor in your time, it won't be. And I doubt it would match the performance of a tried and tested subwoofer made for that type of application.

I like DIY, but, in a living room ... not a "mission-critial" application.


*edit* Here is a cutsheet: http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/DTS 20 Spec Sheet.PDF

 

[bandphan]

I wouldn't spend that kind of money and get some DIY put together.

I would buy one or two Danley Sound Labs DTS20s, which are used often in pipe organ reproduction. 95dB sensitivity, 120+dB spl (that would be like three of what that installer wants to build you, in one box) you'll need a lot less power for the output and third-party tested (multiple third party tested, actually) performance. Truth of the matter is, depending on the SPL requirements, one DTS20 may be plenty, and its under 3,000.

You might be able to save money going the DIY route, but by the time you factor in your time, it won't be. And I doubt it would match the performance of a tried and tested subwoofer made for that type of application.

I like DIY, but, in a living room ... not a "mission-critial" application.


*edit* Here is a cutsheet: http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/DTS 20 Spec Sheet.PDF

The DSL Subs would also be my choice and they will work with you for custom tunnings...

 

[Chopin_Guy]

Going the DIY route doesn't bother me too much as the build is not the part that concerns me as the organ rep (who is an engineer) will be doing the build himself...and I think he was accounting for a lot of profit in his quote of $3,200 for cabinets that used the inexpensive components he was quoting....

Although, of course, I prefer the idea of getting Danley Subs....the question is how much will 2 unit set me back and can they each be powered with a EP2500...

Thank you guys again...

 

[Chopin_Guy]

If you want to fill the sanctuary with authority, contract with one of the nations fine pipe organ builders. Electronic instruments are a very distant second best.

I wish that was a possibility but while still owing close to $1.5 million on a new church and the current economy....$100k is the budget we have for a new organ which rules out a pipe instrument...

Of course nothing is the same a a true organ, but I wouldn't say a distant second....if you have not had the chance to hear the newest and fine electronic organs their reproduction is quite impressive...

Marshall & Ogletree builds some of the most elaborate digital pipe organs---one was used to replace the organ a the Trinity Wall Street Church which was destroyed in 9/11....this digital instrument cost $1 million or more if memory serves me correctly. The don't modulate samples to cover several notes. Rather single samples are used for each and every not on each and every stop---very impressive.

On top of all of this...apparently they recently started to use the Thigpen Rotary drivers for their sub system in place of conventional subwoofers....impressive as each driver is $30k....

Regardless of these advances there is still nothing like the beauty of a pipe organ. For those who have the money it is a sound investment, but the digital technology must be making it more and more difficult for organ builders...

 

[fredk]

This is what I thought about when I read your post. Serious woofage.

 

[Chopin_Guy]

Well all the good posts have had me sitting here for the last couple of hours researching and looking into some of the pre-fab options....

The DTS-20 looks to be an amazing unit....and it seems like with that kind of output that one DTS-20 powered with a bridged EP2500 and crossed over and Eq'ed with a DCX would be amazing in the space....two would be cool but pushes the budget too high $3k a piece....

 

[MidnightSensi]

Well all the good posts have had me sitting here for the last couple of hours researching and looking into some of the pre-fab options....

The DTS-20 looks to be an amazing unit....and it seems like with that kind of output that one DTS-20 powered with a bridged EP2500 and crossed over and Eq'ed with a DCX would be amazing in the space....two would be cool but pushes the budget too high $3k a piece....

How loud do you want to go?

The DCX will work good to gain optimize your system, but won't process at 15Hz, so you'd set it at 20Hz with a smoother roll off. With some pink noise you'll figure out this pretty quick.

One nice thing about the DTS20 for house of worship application is the mouth is pretty small since its a tapped horn, so you can really hide them where it looks like a duct or whatever.

As far as amplification, Crest Audio cc2800 paired with a dbX DriveRack PA for processing, seems to be a good combination.

Best,

 

[Chopin_Guy]

For our application size is not really an issue.....in terms of the full range channels of audio, our organ will have 18 channels of audio. This will actually be 18 of the Behringer B212xl passive PA cabinets as each cabinet only receives 170 watts...

All speakers will be placed in a 30 foot long by about 8 foot deep loft that is about 25 feet high at the very front and center of the church. This is actually an optimal set-up in terms of dispertion and coverage.

As to how loud....I think anything will be a substantial upgrade from the current early 1980's Baldwin Organ with Dual 15" baldwin powered subwoofer unit. The church is mostly hard surfaces with stained concrete floors and hardwood pews. Now when you put 1,100 people in there like happens on large occasions like Easter, Palm Sunday, etc.....that changes the acoustic situation vastly. As I hinted before though....given the specs on the DTS-20 I think one might do just fine....

 

[lsiberian]

For our application size is not really an issue.....in terms of the full range channels of audio, our organ will have 18 channels of audio. This will actually be 18 of the Behringer B212xl passive PA cabinets as each cabinet only receives 170 watts...

All speakers will be placed in a 30 foot long by about 8 foot deep loft that is about 25 feet high at the very front and center of the church. This is actually an optimal set-up in terms of dispertion and coverage.

As to how loud....I think anything will be a substantial upgrade from the current early 1980's Baldwin Organ with Dual 15" baldwin powered subwoofer unit. The church is mostly hard surfaces with stained concrete floors and hardwood pews. Now when you put 1,100 people in there like happens on large occasions like Easter, Palm Sunday, etc.....that changes the acoustic situation vastly. As I hinted before though....given the specs on the DTS-20 I think one might do just fine....

I think one DTS-20 would do the job. With room gain you can easily fill most spaces. Now I don't know the size of your church and would someday love to see it. I imagine with you helping them the sound will be incredible.

You have to remember with the incredible excursion limits of these type of drivers that your normal music volumes will be incredible. Extension is where the dangers occur for over driving a sub. But those notes aren't super common anyway. Plus you don't necessarily need huge volumes for subsonic noise. Because it is felt not heard.

I do love organs though. My seminary's chapel has a gorgeous one.

 

[Chopin_Guy]

Well after talking with Danley just now it seems that the TH50 is actually the better choice with its higher output. We will use a bridged EP2500 to power the TH50 and a DCX2496 to cross-over with a Butterworth slope and give an EQ boost right at 20hz to make up for the cross-over roll-off. Should be quite fun with the 16 Behringer B212xl speaker cabinets.....