Optimizing Internet Radio.

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
OK Jamie, I'm picking up the gauntlet you threw down!

I don't start many threads, bit I agree with Jamie, it is time to break with some of the drivel on the Steam Vent, and get away from the endless threads: "What piece of junk can I buy for less than $200?"

I have been studying and optimizing the pleasures of Internet Radio.

This is timely as the BBC Proms started two weeks ago. This is the largest and longest running music Festival in World by far. Founded by Sir Henry Wood in 1895, they continue to delight, and now bring on the finest performers from around the world. There is a true glut of musical riches at every season now, and this season is no exception.

Until this year the quality was not good enough to really provide an enjoyable listening experience over the Internet. However the BBC have now improved things considerably.

I have to say, that for classical music BBC miking and balancing is absolutely in a class of it own and that includes the major recording companies. I really missed the Proms after moving here 39 years ago. MPR have broadcast a small fraction of the delights available in recent years. However this year has been the first year I have really been able to indulge myself for 39 years.

Obtaining the best results requires care, hence the title of this thread.

The BBC have developed the BBC iplayer which is a version of Real player. However you can do better.

I and my two sons have done listening tests of Internet players. For us we vote Winamp the cream of the crop since inception.

So my advice is to download Winamp if you don't have it.

What I do is click on the concert I want. Stop the iplayer. Copy the URL address and close iplayer. Then I open Winamp, and copy the URL to the browser in Winamap. Then play from Winamp.

Now a word about my set up. My computer does not have an internal sound card, but uses an RME Fireface 800 with 800 Firewire connection.



Now there are a number of ways to proceed as to how to reproduce the sound from the Fireface 800. This is really the meat of my investigation.

I should say that in this application the Fireface 800 seems to be really earning its keep.

I can output analog from the RME to the RSP 1098. I can then play on by pass with the Rotel only providing volume control, with bass management in the analog domain externally. Or I can have the Rotel provide some of the bass management.

I can send a digital SDIF signal to the Rotel 1098.

Now it seems these digitally compressed Internet streams are fragile.

The best option by far and away is to is to output analog to the Rotel 1098, with the Rotel in bypass mode. If you have the Rotel do any processing at all, then there is a highly significant degradation. Sending a SPDIF signal to the Rotel, is in my view sub listenable.

The quality I'm getting with an analog connection to the Rotel in bypass mode with entirely external analog bass management is quite remarkable. It is a good as FM broadcast and in someways better, and the dynamic range is greater. The quality is much better than what I'm able to get from the iBiquity/IBOC, terrestrial digital broadcast system.

If Alex "The Monkey" sees this post, then these Proms are a fantastic way to explore classical music. The Prom concerts are available on line for a week after broadcast. This Prom, available for another 4 days is a great one, and a good place to start. The new Wunderkind, Karen Geophegan is in fine form in the Mozart bassoon concerto. The balance and recoding of the Mahler sixth symphony is superb, and the bass line and tymps are very realistic.

There are a lot of other joys on BBC. I hope we will here something of the Three Choirs Festival, which this year is from Hereford Cathedral in the Malvern Hills.

Talking of choral music the very long running program Choral Evensong is well worth a listen. Every week the BBC outside broadcast team does a broadcast of Evensong from the great choral choir schools of England. They are available for a week after broadcast. A recent broadcast from Winchester Cathedral was especially fine. The bass of the large organ pipes come through loud and strong enough the shake the floor! Choral music is the most challenging to lossy algorithms, and twinking was slightly present occasionally.

In my view the two premier sites for exploring classical music on the we are BBC 3, and Classical Minnesota pubic radio (MPR).

I would be most interested with the experiences of others with Internet Radio, and what quality they are able to achieve. I think Internet radio is really starting to come of age.
 
majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
Thanks For The Great Info

I'm going to have to give this a shot. I run both analog and digital audio connection from my computer to my pre/pro from the soundcard. I've never really gave much thought to trying some serious listening sessions to streaming music since my DSL connection is lame at best (thanks for nothing AT&T).

I already have winamp and might have try it. Granted, I don't have the fancy external A/D/A converter. I've been wanting to start building another computer. No time like the present and this is just another excuse why I need to. :)
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
If Alex "The Monkey" sees this post ...
Wow, honorable mention in a serious thread ... thanks. :)

It's going to take a little doing to get through all the links. I'm about halfway through the one on the history of the Proms. This is going to be of limited use to me due to my current ability to play internet music on my cheesy computer speakers only but reading an informative article or two is a nice break from the "$200 piece of junk" theme and the "Where the **** did this red chicklet come from?" saga.

Interesting reading (your post and the links). ;)

Thanks again,
Alex

EDIT: PS. This is really making me want to get out and hear something live.
 
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Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
I might need to give internet radio a try. Now I just need to find a good receiver to connect to my computer. I've got about $200. Any suggestions?

EDIT: Who gave me a red chicklet for this post?!? Be a man and sign it.

[J/K, Mark! :D Excellent post. Thank you.]
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Mark, you have me curious. Do you find the DACs in the Rotel to be inferior in general, or is it something that is specific to internet radio and the connection to your RME?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Mark, you have me curious. Do you find the DACs in the Rotel to be inferior in general, or is it something that is specific to internet radio and the connection to your RME?
I really can't tell. I suspect it is something to do with a stream that is on the edge, so to speak. If I play a CD to the RME with SPDIF and SPDIF to Rotel, I think everything is the same as going analog to the Rotel, or using my other player and going SPDIF to the Rotel.

I'm not smart enough to know why the Winamp to RME with these streams seems to be much better, but it is. I would need some one with detailed knowledge of how the hand offs work in the digital domain to shed light on this.

I do know that with the improvements both the BBC and MPR have made in recent months, that with my rig I can now get surprisingly good results; results that are light years from what was achievable a short time ago.

I think if you could come and hear some of those broadcasts from the Royal Albert Hall you would be quite astonished.

I guess the main purpose of this thread is to alert members to the fact that things are changing, and these Internet streams are now worth taking seriously. It certainly is worth time and money to get right now.

How much of this is due to the RME I don't know. I can't give enough praise to that unit. As you know I pick my gear very carefully, and try and pick gear with good fit, finish and build quality. I always try and pick gear that I feel will work and give pleasure over many years. Within reason, that is a much bigger consideration than purchase price. That unit might be considered expensive by some. The price how ever is far from stratospheric, and I consider it very good value for money.

The unit was strongly recommended to me by a number of professional engineers. I would recommend it to anyone who wants to get the best from computer audio, and audio to hard drive, without reservation. In my mind it is up there with one of the best purchases I ever made.
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
Thanks TLS Guy.

Thank you TLS Guy (Mark) for this very informative insight about BBC radio on the Internet.
I'm a big fan of Classical music on the radio, including the BBC station, and I'm totally with you on this.

Thanks again,
Bob
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Thank you TLS Guy (Mark) for this very informative insight about BBC radio on the Internet.
I'm a big fan of Classical music on the radio, including the BBC station, and I'm totally with you on this.

Thanks again,
Bob
You are welcome! I guess the mods must have thought we mixed it up too much in Jamie's Thread, that stimulated this thread, as Jamie's thread is pulled.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Jamie's thread is pulled.
They like to do that while they're banning people ... :confused:
I was never here (slinks off), you didn't see me (looks around and then runs). :eek:

There are better things going on around here ... :)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I might need to give internet radio a try. Now I just need to find a good receiver to connect to my computer. I've got about $200. Any suggestions?

EDIT: Who gave me a red chicklet for this post?!? Be a man and sign it.

[J/K, Mark! :D Excellent post. Thank you.]
You don't need a receiver. If you have a high speed internet connection, a media player and sound card you can receive streaming Internet radio. However most of the time quality is dreadful. I think a computer designed for audio, with a good external DAC in place of the sound card, will give superior results.

There are now receivers that will connect to Internet radio streams, I have no idea of the quality of sound produced by those units.
 
split0101

split0101

Junior Audioholic
My Denon 3808 supports internet radio but the interface is super clunky. I have been using my Sonos for Pandora and internet radio and it sounds pretty darn good. It is certainly no worse then listening to the FM tuner and for a bunch of internet stations it sounds much better.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
My Denon 3808 supports internet radio but the interface is super clunky. I have been using my Sonos for Pandora and internet radio and it sounds pretty darn good. It is certainly no worse then listening to the FM tuner and for a bunch of internet stations it sounds much better.
Thanks for the post. This is the sort of information we need passed on in this thread.

If you can get an Internet stream to sound even close to good analog FM, I think you are doing pretty well.

I'd be interested if any others have use the Internet radio feature of tuners, and what results they got.
 
pzaur

pzaur

Audioholic Samurai
While the Yamaha 663 doesn't have a direct interface I can stream internet radio to it through bluetooth. Through tweaking of the bluetooth settings and using the 7ch Enhancer and picking the highest bit rate broadcast available it doesn't sound at all bad.

The #1 factor to the sound quality is to pick the highest bit rate broadcast possible. Personally, this is where I find my internet radio streams: http://www.listenlive.eu/

-pat
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
While the Yamaha 663 doesn't have a direct interface I can stream internet radio to it through bluetooth. Through tweaking of the bluetooth settings and using the 7ch Enhancer and picking the highest bit rate broadcast available it doesn't sound at all bad.

The #1 factor to the sound quality is to pick the highest bit rate broadcast possible. Personally, this is where I find my internet radio streams: http://www.listenlive.eu/

-pat
Interesting, however contrary to my experience. I have found that if you use 7ch algorithms, like Dolby pl2x some really weird things happen. In fact it seems all these streams tolerate is one really good conversion, and anything after that, even bass management sinks it.

I can very good sound now from one conversion in the RME, then really good analog all the way after that. Anything else and it drops below the enjoyable quickly.
 
pzaur

pzaur

Audioholic Samurai
Interesting, however contrary to my experience. I have found that if you use 7ch algorithms, like Dolby pl2x some really weird things happen. In fact it seems all these streams tolerate is one really good conversion, and anything after that, even bass management sinks it.

I can very good sound now from one conversion in the RME, then really good analog all the way after that. Anything else and it drops below the enjoyable quickly.
As they say, "Ignorance is bliss!" I haven't toyed with the different options for "improving" internet radio streams. None of them ever broadcast at 320 or anything close to lossless so I just expect to hear some defects in the broadcast.

You've really got the rig to play around with many options. Totally unfair!

-pat
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
As they say, "Ignorance is bliss!" I haven't toyed with the different options for "improving" internet radio streams. None of them ever broadcast at 320 or anything close to lossless so I just expect to hear some defects in the broadcast.

You've really got the rig to play around with many options. Totally unfair!

-pat
Unfair or not, its fun!

The BBC stream used to be variable 40 kbs stream, it is now a solid 128 kbs like NPR. This is 38 kbs higher than the iBiquity/IBOC HD radio system, which is why Internet streaming has a definite edge in my view.

It is not as good as CD, but nor is the best analog FM. Most of these streaming broadcast have been comparable to analog FM, but with better dynamic range.

One Broadcast did beat the system, and significantly. It was the Berlioz Te Deum, with a full orchestra, over four hundred strong choir and the huge Albert Hall, Father Willis organ, in full cry. I can tell you too many bits got dumped on the floor.
 
majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
I'd like to find some decent streams for jazz. Any suggestion where some streams with high bandwidth are available?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Unfair or not, its fun!

The BBC stream used to be variable 40 kbs stream, it is now a solid 128 kbs like NPR. This is 38 kbs higher than the iBiquity/IBOC HD radio system, which is why Internet streaming has a definite edge in my view.

It is not as good as CD, but nor is the best analog FM. Most of these streaming broadcast have been comparable to analog FM, but with better dynamic range.

One Broadcast did beat the system, and significantly. It was the Berlioz Te Deum, with a full orchestra, over four hundred strong choir and the huge Albert Hall, Father Willis organ, in full cry. I can tell you too many bits got dumped on the floor.
The Red Chicklet Demon is still on the loose. This got one. Unsigned of course.
 
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