Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
My thoughts.

I'm still shopping around for a decent receiver for my KEF iQ7 and found out that Denon AVR-2308 on eBay is almost the same price as Onkyo 606 at vanns.com. Which one is superior to another?

How does the Denon stand against Onkyo 705?

With almost the same amount of money, how about a 5 years old used Rotel RSX-1065 AV Receiver? Do you recommend me buying a used top notch AVR or just buy a brand new one such as Denon and Onkyo 606?
Hi GomGom,

The Denon 2308 is a very decent receiver. But I think that the Onkyo 705
is a better one; more features, THX Select, Audyssey MultEQ XT, good power supply, good internal parts and an excellent value.

The Rotel 1065 is a great sounding receiver, above the Onkyo and Denon.
But it's outdated by quite a large margin, features wise; no HDMI, no new
audio codecs, no room EQ...

What is the most important to you? Best sound without the latest features,
or great sound with all the latest features?

The Onkyo 705 should be at the top of your list. Sound wise, it's the equivalent of the Denon, not better and not worst. I will say that the 705
is a little more open with more clarity than the Denon more veiled sound.

If your speakers are too bright, maybe the 2308 will suit you just fine.
If your speakers are reasonably smooth sounding, the 705 will be perfect.

I owned both Onkyo & Denon receivers, and that's what I found with
matching speakers. And like I said, Rotel is a very great brand, but 5 years
old is no good to you on receivers, unless you want to use it strictly for music
listening; but what about Blu-Ray movies?

That's my sincere opinion.

Cheers,

_______ Bob
 
G

GomGom

Audioholic
I will play music and movies with Blu-ray Player too. Where are you located? Vancouver? I'm in Vancouver and still learning + shopping around for my first setup. What do you think of KEF iQ7 speakers?
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
Hi GomGom,

I live on the island, near Victoria.
If you are going to watch blu-ray, then call all the London Drugs in your area
and see if they still carry the Onkyo 805, if not check with the 705.
They are at discount prices, because they are discontinued.

As for your speakers model, I am not familiar with them, but I know that KEF
is an excellent brand.

Good luck,

______ Bob
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So as not to “re-post”, please read posts # 11 & 17 for a further explanation

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53337&page=2
I read them, I don't see that they further explained what I needed explaining but thanks anyway.

It still boils down to the possibility that there may be people like you who may have some special discerning ability. I have been in this hobby for years and I have never met one such person so naturally I believe the vast majority of the population in this hobby would have trouble telling a mid end NAD, Rotel and a Denon or Onkyo apart in a blind listening test. That's why I believe most people should do well by sticking with things like features, power output, reliability and the look etc., rather than the so called sound quality.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
A Denon is a Denon (for the most part) and Onkyo is very similar. The Rotel will be better sounding, but will not decode the new surround sound modes. You would need a BD player that decodes internally, then outputs via analog, that is assuming the Rotel has multi-channel inputs.
"must... resist.... urge..... to..... feed troll!"
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
"must... resist.... urge..... to..... feed troll!"
But I am think I am weak, so here are some of my observataions:

- NAD, Rotel, Arcam cost more relatively speaking.
- All apparently do well in ACD
- All have their roots outside of NA.
- All tend to be relatively heavier (except for Arcam).

I believe they need to sell their products at much higher prices in order to survive, due to their much lower sales volume than the mass produced Deonon, Pioneer, Yamaha products.

I fequent the Chapters/Indigo stores so I've read quite a few hi fi magazine reviews. I noticed that British magazines tend to rank Denon, Yamaha and Pioneer receivers highly relative to the NADs (even in terms of SQ). They do consistently rank the Arcam receivers top in SQ, along with comparable Denon/Yamaha models.
 
CraigV

CraigV

Audioholic General
I read them, I don't see that they further explained what I needed explaining but thanks anyway.

It still boils down to the possibility that there may be people like you who may have some special discerning ability. I have been in this hobby for years and I have never met one such person so naturally I believe the vast majority of the population in this hobby would have trouble telling a mid end NAD, Rotel and a Denon or Onkyo apart in a blind listening test. That's why I believe most people should do well by sticking with things like features, power output, reliability and the look etc., rather than the so called sound quality.

Fair enough. I have seen in other posts that I am not the only person here who is able to discern these differences. As I said, I though referring to oneself as an “audioholic” meant these differences were clear & present.

I have doled out some advice to people looking for it, and I hope the advice I have given is in keeping with the general spirit of the forums. True enough, most people will not pick up on the differences, but it would seem odd to have pages dedicated to giving/receiving advice if only to reply with “buy what fits your budget”. People should at least be made aware there are other offerings, audition, and decide for themselves if there really is (or isn’t) enough difference to take the step up.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Fair enough. I have seen in other posts that I am not the only person here who is able to discern these differences.
No one ever said groups of people can't be delusional. A great example is Scientology, or the fact that Monster Cable is still in business.;)
 
CraigV

CraigV

Audioholic General
No one ever said groups of people can't be delusional. A great example is Scientology, or the fact that Monster Cable is still in business.;)

Was that really necessary?
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Was that really necessary?
wut? wut I do?

*appears to be innocent*
Of course we must poke fun at ourselves. Don't take yourself too seriously now.;)

Speakers are where things really matter. That's where many of us devote our aims.

I've kinda become a DIY fanatic. I'm gluing and cutting the holes soon.:D

I think a midfi receiver with a 3 channel amp and a DCX makes the best option in many cases. the 3 channel amp is to allow you to use the DCX. to integrate your dual subs and your mains.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
But I am think I am weak, so here are some of my observataions:

- NAD, Rotel, Arcam cost more relatively speaking.
- All apparently do well in ACD
- All have their roots outside of NA.
- All tend to be relatively heavier (except for Arcam).

I believe they need to sell their products at much higher prices in order to survive, due to their much lower sales volume than the mass produced Deonon, Pioneer, Yamaha products.

I fequent the Chapters/Indigo stores so I've read quite a few hi fi magazine reviews. I noticed that British magazines tend to rank Denon, Yamaha and Pioneer receivers highly relative to the NADs (even in terms of SQ). They do consistently rank the Arcam receivers top in SQ, along with comparable Denon/Yamaha models.
Yup, The Brits sure like their British built stuff. *L* They're kind of biased that way and would never prefe a Japanese, Canadian, or American product. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Fair enough. I have seen in other posts that I am not the only person here who is able to discern these differences. As I said, I though referring to oneself as an “audioholic” meant these differences were clear & present.

I have doled out some advice to people looking for it, and I hope the advice I have given is in keeping with the general spirit of the forums. True enough, most people will not pick up on the differences, but it would seem odd to have pages dedicated to giving/receiving advice if only to reply with “buy what fits your budget”. People should at least be made aware there are other offerings, audition, and decide for themselves if there really is (or isn’t) enough difference to take the step up.
I do appreciate your posts and I am sure many others do as well despite the fact that we do poke fun at each others now and then and sometime we (me anyway) overdo it too.

That being said, I would like to make a few more points.

1. I have had listened to NAD, Rotel, Arcam receivers and amps and I don't find them sounding any different than the Japanese made models within the same price range. I do own a preamp and a couple of amps and I eventually settled on leaving my preamp for my two channel system only, after I was sure my Denon receiver was just as good. Obviously all these are my own subjective observations only and I know yours could be entirely different.

2. I have a good understanding of the electrical and electronic principles behind audio amplifiers. Amp designs do not require the application of electrical/electronic knowledge base beyond university first degree level. No rocket science is involved.

3. People know how to design and build linear audio amps with inaudible distortion for years. I can't see why NAD could make theirs sound better if they too, design and build their amps to amplify audio signals in the roughly 20 to 20,000 Hz range faithfully?

4. Nowadays it does not cost much to build good quality amplifiers. Just take a look of the price of pro amps as an example.

5. It seems to me that people tend to believe more expensive amps/receivers sound better. We typically see posts that claim NAD, ARCAM, ROTEL, B&K are better in sound quality even though they may be behind in features and CODECS. Coincidentally they are typically more expensive. They may be more expensive because their production costs are higher, but the higher costs could well be due mainly to their lower volume of sales.

6. I said I had not met a single person who could tell those receivers/amps (brands I mentioned) apart but I was referring to products based on class A/B design (most still are) of recent years only. I used to think different products sounded different in earlier years for whatever reasons. I do know people who feel the same way, yet we all still feel tube amps sound different, at least the entry level ones.

7. Output power matters if you need it but I believe there is no disagreement here. The amp has to be powerful enough to handle the loudspeakers regardless of their electrical characteristics. Other than that, amps amplify the signal faithfully and pass it on to the loudspeakers that ultimately reproduce the sound.

I am not trying to tell people not to buy high end gear. I just want to say that people could spend a fortune on high end gear only to find out they may not get that "better" they may be after. It may sound contradictory, but I always want to own at least a pair of used McIntosh preamp/amp for my two channel system even though I am quite certain that I will not be surprised by their sound quality as I am confident that they are designed to sound neutral as well. I like their look and, high end or not, they are affordable. To me, audiophiles (not that I am one) don't necessarily buy high end gear just because they believe they sound better.
 

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