Onkyo TX-RZ810 + Dali Opticon 6 Need help with setup

[faz668]

Hi everyone

I'm new here with noob questions.

This is my current setup

Onkyo RZ810
Dali Opticon 6 for the front
Dali Opticon Vokal as the center
Dali Opticon 1 as surround.
Dali E12-F sub

I used the auto setup with the mic etc, it set my sub to 120hz ( but changed this to 90hz) as that was what it was recommending at according to the manual, all other speakers to 80hz in the cross over.

The overall volume seems low at the earlier stages, meaning i need to crank it near half way before i start getting a decent level of volume

I find when i play music via the playstation mainly spotify the setup works okay however when watching blu rays I do need to put it a lot louder to reach the same volume as I would to say listen to music. Also i find the dialogue to be extremely low, so what i have done is increase the center speaker to +7db and increase the fronts to around +4db along with the surr speakers.

The max volume is set to 0db or volume 82. I have not reached this volume level yet but my concern is i reach about volume 65-75 and it's good but in the back of my mind im thinking i have only another 7 digits left for max volume?

Do you think I should increase the max volume on the amp setting or not? Reason why i say this is because let's say when im playing music volume on around 50 would sound the same as volume on around 65 on movies.

Also since i have increased +7db on the centre speaker does that eat in to the max volume? So say max is 82 volume and ive increase the centre to +7 essentially is my max volume limit now 75 rather than 82?

I am kind of confused as to what's going on . What my amp and speakers can handle, I don't want to tweak settings and then blow something up.

Many thanks

 

[markw]

It's not unusual for different sources to play at different volume levels. Having to adjust volume between them is not unusual.

If you go around kerfutzing with stuff to optimize one source, you may improve one but it's at the detriment of the other sources.

As for that "maximum volume" question, your receiver can only output so much power. At what setting on the volume control it is, be it at 50, 80, 100, or whatever, it will only put out what it can

You can take that for what it's worth.

 

[faz668]

Thanks.

So for example if my receiver is set to volume 82 max ( i set this figure as this is 0db ) , I can in theory crank it to 82, but if my center speaker is set to +7db this would mean it's gone over the 82 max ? Risking damage to the center speaker? So in order to play anything at 82 would my center speaker need to be put down 0 rather than +7db?

 

[markw]

First off, those numbers aren't decibels in the sense of real loudness. They only represent what the mfgr thinks is what their amp can put out with 100 being the practical max.

you won't damage the speaker.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks.

So for example if my receiver is set to volume 82 max ( i set this figure as this is 0db ) , I can in theory crank it to 82, but if my center speaker is set to +7db this would mean it's gone over the 82 max ? Risking damage to the center speaker? So in order to play anything at 82 would my center speaker need to be put down 0 rather than +7db?

Your auto set up seems to have made a mess of things. Your mains have a sensitivity of 89db and your center 89.5 db. So your center should not need to be at +7db!

Make sure all speakers are wired correctly. An out of phase condition will really muck things up.

Now run the auto set up one more time. If the results are out of wack again then forget auto set up and do it manually.

Your sub, like most European subs is on the puny side, with an F3 of 28 Hz. The other speakers seem capable.

If the auto set up is off again, do a manual set up like this.

Set all speakers to 0db. Set the distances to what you measure.

Set the front three speakers to large, and the surrounds to small. Then set the receiver to LFE + Main. Now set the sub to come in at 80 Hz. That should get you very close. Now you can fine tune by ear.

Receivers vary on how good auto set up is. Some set distances and levels spot on. Others make a mess of things. I always advise against any auto Eq. Equalizing at a distance with a microphone is just nonsense. So switch off auto Eq.

 

[faz668]

Hi thanks for your reply.

The distance it set was spot on , the levels were pretty much all on 0db apart from the front right which was 0.5 and the sub which was +6db

Thing is dialogue isn't loud enough so i manually turned the center speaker +7db , however in saying that its generally just when im watching blu rays, everything else like music is fine,

I was told to keep the front speakers as "small speakers" even though they are large and keep it on 80hz across all speakers .

The option to set for large is "full range" which is the lowest hz up to 200

So confused now.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi thanks for your reply.

The distance it set was spot on , the levels were pretty much all on 0db apart from the front right which was 0.5 and the sub which was +6db

Thing is dialogue isn't loud enough so i manually turned the center speaker +7db , however in saying that its generally just when im watching blu rays, everything else like music is fine,

I was told to keep the front speakers as "small speakers" even though they are large and keep it on 80hz across all speakers .

The option to set for large is "full range" which is the lowest hz up to 200

So confused now.

The advice you were given is the usual advice, but your sub I think needs some help and your front three are very capable. You will get better more even bass following my advice I think. In fact if the mains are capable I always set up that way and its better. If mains can handle it, I think it always works best to set speakers to large. That is my experience anyway.

I think it is strange you need to set your center up 7db. Make sure you have any auto Eq done by the auto set up defeated. On the other hand it may be your center speaker is not that good. I have to say a lot, and actually probably most center speakers, are not very good. In fact good center speakers are tough to design. They are by far the hardest nut to crack.

 

[faz668]

Many thanks for your advice, thing is the center speaker is more than loud enough when listening to music etc, its literally just when playing films that i dont get enough dialogue volume coming out thats why i have set it higher, I heard there is a dialogue setting in the onkyo however i cant find it for the life of me. I checked the blu ray players settings to see if there was anything i missed on their, as normal music ( ps4 spotify ) is perfect , just when playing movies it's low on dialogue.

 

[everettT]

Did I miss it or did you start with your speakers as all small?

 

[faz668]

There isn't really a small / large setting, it;s done in hz then once it drops below 40hz it turns to "full band" which is basically large. So yes they have always been set to small as this is what i was told. Small speakers, 80hz through out the whole thing.

I might try turning the center speaker only to large and give it a trial?

Still makes no sense though as this issue is only reflected during blu ray movies

 

[everettT]

Can you take a pic of it. Damn onkyo for going to a cheaper proprietary setup. All RC usually gives option of large, small, or plus

There isn't really a small / large setting, it;s done in hz then once it drops below 40hz it turns to "full band" which is basically large. So yes they have always been set to small as this is what i was told. Small speakers, 80hz through out the whole thing.

I might try turning the center speaker only to large and give it a trial?

Still makes no sense though as this issue is only reflected during blu ray movies

 

[TLS Guy]

There isn't really a small / large setting, it;s done in hz then once it drops below 40hz it turns to "full band" which is basically large. So yes they have always been set to small as this is what i was told. Small speakers, 80hz through out the whole thing.

I might try turning the center speaker only to large and give it a trial?

Still makes no sense though as this issue is only reflected during blu ray movies

Reproducing speech and music are totally different equations. Speakers can do a quite passable job with music and yet have severe speech intelligibility issues.

Looking at you center a bit more closely it is going to have a very bizarre lobing pattern. A nice uniform pattern preferably cone shaped over the listening area and not inciting too much floor or ceiling reflections is what is required. In addition that side mounted bass mid crosses to the first tweeter at 2.3 KHz. That is right bang in the middle of the speech discrimination range.

I have three rigs. My big rig uses a coaxial driver and a fill driver in vertical alignment, with crossover at 2.8 KHz, which is lower than I like, but needs must, because the mid/woofer cone must cross there. In addition the speakers are transmission lines and are non resonant and so there is no trace of chestiness to speech which helps a lot.

Another rig is two channel and is three way with mid domes going from 400 Hz to 4 KHz. Speech clarity is very good.

The other rig uses a vintage full range 4" aluminum Jordan Watts driver. Even though this driver rolls off slightly above 6 KHz speech clarity is very good indeed. These drivers are flat as a pan in the speech discrimination range.

Unfortunately I notice a lot of center speakers have very poor speech discrimination, which is a terrible failing for an AV center speaker. Others are shouty, and while speech is intelligible it is not natural and music sounds awful from those speakers.

A huge part of the problem is the obvious desire for center speakers to be much wider than tall. The other issue is the lack of drivers that can handle the whole speech discrimination band without crossing over in that range.

I guess you only solutions are to try other centers, or turn the center up for movies and down for music. Unfortunately movies have both speech and music.

 

[faz668]

Thank you very much for your detailed report, i really do appreciate your input.

I have one noob questions to ask and you will probably think what a **** .

I just played a movie on blu ray ( as i said blu ray movies play a lot quieter than say ps4 games or tv etc )

My volume I have set to a limit of 0db which is the reference spot, in terms of numbers 0db is volume 82 on my device.

Back to the point, I got up to -15db and it was fairly loud ( i like A LOT of noise) so fairly loud for me is probably loud for others, however im just wondering, the speakers do not seem to be working hard or anything if I went say past 0db which is the reference to say +10db, what i cause massive issues to my AV receiver and speakers, judging on the setup i have? I probably would never goto +10db but i want to know if i can go past the 0db in to + 1,2,3,4,5,6 or if it's a complete no no.

I mean at 0DB if my speakers are going strong , no distortion no sign of failing or clipping, do you think i could push it past the ref 0db?

 

[TLS Guy]

Thank you very much for your detailed report, i really do appreciate your input.

I have one noob questions to ask and you will probably think what a **** .

I just played a movie on blu ray ( as i said blu ray movies play a lot quieter than say ps4 games or tv etc )

My volume I have set to a limit of 0db which is the reference spot, in terms of numbers 0db is volume 82 on my device.

Back to the point, I got up to -15db and it was fairly loud ( i like A LOT of noise) so fairly loud for me is probably loud for others, however im just wondering, the speakers do not seem to be working hard or anything if I went say past 0db which is the reference to say +10db, what i cause massive issues to my AV receiver and speakers, judging on the setup i have? I probably would never goto +10db but i want to know if i can go past the 0db in to + 1,2,3,4,5,6 or if it's a complete no no.

I mean at 0DB if my speakers are going strong , no distortion no sign of failing or clipping, do you think i could push it past the ref 0db?

The db volume readings are relative and NOT absolute.

If you hear distortion turn it down, otherwise you might cause speaker and or receiver damage.

If it sounds clean you should be OK. Unless your room is huge, I doubt with those speakers you will drive the rig to damaging levels. However as in all things common sense is required. Last but not least the worst thing to damage is your hearing, as there is no service department for that.

 

[faz668]

Thank you , you have actually been a great help, yes of course as i said i probably wouldnt ever go above the 0db ref spot but its just something that i wanted to know if it was possible to do so assuming at the reference point ( 0 db ) there is no distortion or obvious signs of strain

 

[Dan Madden]

By setting your front speakers to large, you are essentially duplicating efforts for nothing. The whole idea of having a powered sub is for the sub to do the heavy bass work (Below 80hz) and to free up power for your amp to do the rest of the work. This is especially true for music. With a sub(s) in the equation, always set all your speakers to small. There is no point to sending a full range signal to your speakers when a sub can produce the bass better and more efficiently (That's what it is designed to do!!).

As for your center channel dialogue problems.........Join the club! The issue is not just with your center channel speaker but the crappy way most movies are mixed and recorded. Actors mumble their way through their parts and are poorly miked during filming. This happens all the time.

As I've mentioned many times in this forum, do all your setup manually and ditch the auto setup crap. Set all your speaker distances manually....set all your speakers to small with the THX benchmark of 80hz crossed over to the sub. Set all your speaker db levels manually using an SPL meter...... except for the sub. Adjust that one manually using your ears and how it works while playing music. You want the sub to blend in and COMPLIMENT the music.....not dominate it. Once the sub works well with music, it will work well with everything else.

As a final note, if your watching a movie and have trouble hearing the dialogue, despite the fact that you adjusted the center channel db level properly with your other speakers.........JUST TURN THE DAMN THING UP !! Happens all the time and if your amp/ AVR is the same as my Rotel, when you finish the movie and change sources, it will default back to your original settings. AMEN !!

 

[faz668]

Thank you for your input,

What db level should i set everything to if i use a SPL

 

[everettT]

Thank you for your input,

What db level should i set everything to if i use a SPL

75 is typically used, some do 80/85. If the avr is thx certified then 75 .

 

[TLS Guy]

By setting your front speakers to large, you are essentially duplicating efforts for nothing. The whole idea of having a powered sub is for the sub to do the heavy bass work (Below 80hz) and to free up power for your amp to do the rest of the work. This is especially true for music. With a sub(s) in the equation, always set all your speakers to small. There is no point to sending a full range signal to your speakers when a sub can produce the bass better and more efficiently (That's what it is designed to do!!).

As for your center channel dialogue problems.........Join the club! The issue is not just with your center channel speaker but the crappy way most movies are mixed and recorded. Actors mumble their way through their parts and are poorly miked during filming. This happens all the time.

As I've mentioned many times in this forum, do all your setup manually and ditch the auto setup crap. Set all your speaker distances manually....set all your speakers to small with the THX benchmark of 80hz crossed over to the sub. Set all your speaker db levels manually using an SPL meter...... except for the sub. Adjust that one manually using your ears and how it works while playing music. You want the sub to blend in and COMPLIMENT the music.....not dominate it. Once the sub works well with music, it will work well with everything else.

As a final note, if your watching a movie and have trouble hearing the dialogue, despite the fact that you adjusted the center channel db level properly with your other speakers.........JUST TURN THE DAMN THING UP !! Happens all the time and if your amp/ AVR is the same as my Rotel, when you finish the movie and change sources, it will default back to your original settings. AMEN !!

Actually there is every reason to set speakers to large IF they are capable. nI my my main rig ALL speakers are set to large. This actually gives much more even bass throughout the room. Remember a sub crossover is a generic crossover and not designed for a specific set of speakers. Supplementing mains gives a smoother response. In terms of power a sub offloads the main amps barely at all, as it is not where the power is. The real power is above sub range, well above it.

What a sub does do is off load drivers and prevent them from being displacement limited. If your speakers are capable with good motor systems and suspensions then use them. Trust me it sounds much better that way.

This is the recommendation of the high end UK speaker manufacturers by the way.

 

[Dan Madden]

TLS Guy......To each his own. If you like the sound of your system better with the speakers set to large then great. However, it is common knowledge in the audio industry that bass reproduction sucks the most power from your amp. By setting your speakers to large, you are asking your amp to provide LF sound to all your speakers when the powered sub can do that job.......and better in most cases. It is, in my opinion a duplication of efforts.

In other words, if your speakers are capable of accurately reproducing 20-80hz frequencies then of course, you do not need a sub at all!!