Onkyo TX-4500 mystery

[Quilope]

After much hunting, I ended up with a pair of Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE's used off Audiogon. Now I'm trying to find a good amp to power them. I was looking at an Emotiva UPA-2. The XPA-2 looks awesome, but I'm living in a tiny apartment right now, so I think the smaller one would be more appropriate. I made an offer on one on Audiogon, but if it falls through, I think I'll buy a DTA 100A and an HT SUB-100.

Earlier today a friend randomly offered me an Onkyo TX-4500 receiver that she doesn't want. I told her I'd go home and research it a little, and from what I've read it seems like it could be a decent piece of hardware. I do have a couple questions, though;

1. A receiver is what? A device that can receive a radio signal? Also, some receivers have amps built in?

The manual for the TX-4500 says:

65 watts per channel, min. RMS, at 4 ohms both channels driven from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, with no more than 0.1% total harmonic distortion. 55 watts per channel, min. RMS, at 8 ohms both channels driven, from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, with no more than 0.1% total harmonic distortion.
75 watts per channel, min. RMS, at 4 ohms both channels driven 1 kHz, 0.1% THD.
60 watts per channel, min RMS, at 8 ohms, both channels driven, 1 kHz,
0.1% THD
0.1% at rated power
0.08% at 1 watts output
0.3% at rated power
0.1% at 1 watts output
50 (8 ohms 1 kHz 10 watts)
15-30,000 Hz (± 1 dB)
2-80,000 Hz (±1 dB at main amplifier)

I understand almost none of this ^ Which brings me to my next question...

2. How can something be rated for 4 ohms and 8 ohms at the same time? Does the receiver/amp somehow know how many ohms the speakers want or will I blow something up if I plug a 4 ohm device into 8 ohm speakers? The CBM-170 SE's I have want a minimum of 25 watts at 8 ohms. Would this receiver be good and/or appropriate to power them?

3. For Inputs is says:

phono 1 & 2, tape play 1, 2 & 3, dolby in, main in FM and AM antenna.

So, are the phono and tape inputs just a bunch of RCA in's? Is there some difference between the types of audio inputs?

Will all of my music suddenly sound like it's from the 70's if I use this receiver?

 

[jeannot]

1. A receiver is what? A device that can receive a radio signal? Also, some receivers have amps built in?

Tuner + Preamp + Amp in one box. On some high-end models, you can use the preamp and power amp separately.

2. How can something be rated for 4 ohms and 8 ohms at the same time? Does the receiver/amp somehow know how many ohms the speakers want or will I blow something up if I plug a 4 ohm device into 8 ohm speakers? The CBM-170 SE's I have want a minimum of 25 watts at 8 ohms. Would this receiver be good and/or appropriate to power them?

The speaker decides, the amp adapts. You will only blow something up if you throw too much power into the speakers.

3. For Inputs is says:

phono 1 & 2, tape play 1, 2 & 3, dolby in, main in FM and AM antenna.

So, are the phono and tape inputs just a bunch of RCA in's? Is there some difference between the types of audio inputs?

Two kinds of inputs generally: High level (Tape, AUX, ...) and low-level Phono.
Will all of my music suddenly sound like it's from the 70's if I use this receiver? [/QUOTE]
Nope. But you may hear some crazy pot smokers in the background on week-ends.

 

[jeannot]

1. A receiver is what? A device that can receive a radio signal? Also, some receivers have amps built in?

Tuner + Preamp + Amp in one box. On some high-end models, you can use the preamp and power amp separately.

2. How can something be rated for 4 ohms and 8 ohms at the same time? Does the receiver/amp somehow know how many ohms the speakers want or will I blow something up if I plug a 4 ohm device into 8 ohm speakers? The CBM-170 SE's I have want a minimum of 25 watts at 8 ohms. Would this receiver be good and/or appropriate to power them?

The speaker decides, the amp adapts. You will only blow something up if you throw too much power into the speakers.

3. For Inputs is says:

phono 1 & 2, tape play 1, 2 & 3, dolby in, main in FM and AM antenna.

So, are the phono and tape inputs just a bunch of RCA in's? Is there some difference between the types of audio inputs?

Two kinds of inputs generally: High level (Tape, AUX, ...) and low-level Phono.
Will all of my music suddenly sound like it's from the 70's if I use this receiver? [/QUOTE]
Nope. But you may hear some crazy p0t smokers in the background on week-ends.

 

[sholling]

After much hunting, I ended up with a pair of Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE's used off Audiogon. Now I'm trying to find a good amp to power them. I was looking at an Emotiva UPA-2. The XPA-2 looks awesome, but I'm living in a tiny apartment right now, so I think the smaller one would be more appropriate. I made an offer on one on Audiogon, but if it falls through, I think I'll buy a DTA 100A and an HT SUB-100.

Earlier today a friend randomly offered me an Onkyo TX-4500 receiver that she doesn't want. I told her I'd go home and research it a little, and from what I've read it seems like it could be a decent piece of hardware. I do have a couple questions, though;

1. A receiver is what? A device that can receive a radio signal? Also, some receivers have amps built in?

A receiver is a combined preamplifier (volume & tone controls), amplifier, and radio tuner. You can't just use an amplifier without some sort of preamp.

2. How can something be rated for 4 ohms and 8 ohms at the same time? Does the receiver/amp somehow know how many ohms the speakers want or will I blow something up if I plug a 4 ohm device into 8 ohm speakers?

All you really need to understand here is that most speakers have a nominal impedance of 6-8ohms which is a fairly easy load for the amplifier. 4ohm speakers can overheat an amp that isn't rated for the load. In this case the amp in the receiver is rated for both 4 and 8 ohm loads so you have nothing to worry about.

The CBM-170 SE's I have want a minimum of 25 watts at 8 ohms. Would this receiver be good and/or appropriate to power them?

50w should be enough to drive them loud enough for an apartment.

3. For Inputs is says:

phono 1 & 2, tape play 1, 2 & 3, dolby in, main in FM and AM antenna.

So, are the phono and tape inputs just a bunch of RCA in's? Is there some difference between the types of audio inputs?

Phono cartridges have a lower output than tape players so yes there is a difference. Remember that back in the 70s when that receiver was made we didn't have a lot of stuff to plug into a receiver. A turntable, a cassette tape deck, and maybe a reel to reel tape deck. That was about all there was. But the tape inputs are the same today as they were back then.

The only thing that will probably be missing is a subwoofer-out jack. That means that you will have to jump through some hoops to get the sub hooked up and configured. I think with your tight budget that instead of buying an amplifier and a preamp that for now I'd just buy a new or used modern receiver. Something like this factory reconditioned Onkyo TX-SR508 should be plenty for an apartment and its Audyssey setup will help you get your speakers and subwoofer playing nice together. Or if you eventually want to add an emotiva amp then spend a bit more last years TX-SR707 is designed so that you can add an external amplifier. Either will do the job for you. FWIW I believe that A4L is in Florida so shipping costs shouldn't be too bad.

The other option is to use the old Onkyo and hook the speaker outs to the high-level inputs on the subwoofer (if it has them) and then connect the speakers to the high-level outputs on the subwoofer. Then you'd use the subwoofer's crossover (if it has one) and a $40 Radio Shack SPL meter to balance the speakers and sub. Kind of a pain but some people like to go through all that. As long as the sub has high-level inputs it's a way to save money.

 

[Quilope]

Hello, sholling!

So, even though they are "tape" inputs, I should be able to plug in my laptop or a CD player or something, right? Am I to understand the phono in's are like, more sensitive or something? Do they boost the incoming signal more, perhaps?

Right now, I can't even afford a sub, so I think I'll just wait 'til I can get a bunch of stuff and UPGRADE For now, I think this old Onkyo - assuming it works - should be fine paired with the speakers. I brought the thing home tonight and my girlfriend is already complaining... :O

My goal here is to eventually have a nice stereo/monitor system because I want to make electronic music. The two you linked look nice, but they seem to have some extraneous features for my purposes. What do you think of the Onkyo TX-8555? Are the built-in amps decent equipment? Obviously doing everything separate is best, but this thing seems like it would do the job nicely and it has a pre output for a sub. My wallet and my taste in electronics seem to be having a disagreement...

 

[sholling]

So, even though they are "tape" inputs, I should be able to plug in my laptop or a CD player or something, right?

No problem.

Am I to understand the phono in's are like, more sensitive or something? Do they boost the incoming signal more, perhaps?

I believe the phono input is more sensitive.

Right now, I can't even afford a sub, so I think I'll just wait 'til I can get a bunch of stuff and UPGRADE For now, I think this old Onkyo - assuming it works - should be fine paired with the speakers. I brought the thing home tonight and my girlfriend is already complaining... :O

Free is a great price and as long as it works I'd use it for now.

My goal here is to eventually have a nice stereo/monitor system because I want to make electronic music. The two you linked look nice, but they seem to have some extraneous features for my purposes. What do you think of the Onkyo TX-8555? Are the built-in amps decent equipment? Obviously doing everything separate is best, but this thing seems like it would do the job nicely and it has a pre output for a sub. My wallet and my taste in electronics seem to be having a disagreement...

There are some purists that don't want "extras" but I'm in the camp that a 5.1 is a better choice most of the time even for 2.1. The reason is that like most stereo receivers the 8555 does not do bass management. There's a subwoofer-out jack on the back but no internal crossover meaning that you're sending the full 20-20khz to both the speakers and the sub. That also means having to buy a meter and fiddle around playing tones and sweeps trying to balance the output of the speakers and sub.

With the 508 and 707 that I linked you place the included setup mic at ear height where you normally sit and it will play a set of tones and then set the crossover and balance the output of the speakers and sub.

Let us know how that old Onkyo works.

 

[Pyrrho]

Hello, sholling!

So, even though they are "tape" inputs, I should be able to plug in my laptop or a CD player or something, right? Am I to understand the phono in's are like, more sensitive or something? Do they boost the incoming signal more, perhaps?

Yes, with phono inputs, there is something called a "phono preamp" which boosts very low level signals to higher levels (to the "line level", which is the level of the other inputs). It also applies a special equalization curve to the signal, due to the fact that LPs have an inherently poor frequency response, and so special equalization is applied to the signal before it is put on the LP, and the phono preamp section reverses the process, to give you approximately the original signal.

Do NOT hook up anything other than a phono to it. And if you get a turntable with a built-in phono amplifier, make sure you either do not use its phono amplifier, or plug into a different input on the receiver. Frankly, I would not bother with a turntable, but it is up to you.


So, if you have a CD player, or the line output from a computer or iPod or whatever, use the auxiliary input (if there is one) or tape input on the receiver.

Right now, I can't even afford a sub, so I think I'll just wait 'til I can get a bunch of stuff and UPGRADE For now, I think this old Onkyo - assuming it works - should be fine paired with the speakers. I brought the thing home tonight and my girlfriend is already complaining... :O

My goal here is to eventually have a nice stereo/monitor system because I want to make electronic music. The two you linked look nice, but they seem to have some extraneous features for my purposes. What do you think of the Onkyo TX-8555? Are the built-in amps decent equipment? Obviously doing everything separate is best, but this thing seems like it would do the job nicely and it has a pre output for a sub. My wallet and my taste in electronics seem to be having a disagreement...

Frankly, if that old Onkyo you got for free is not malfunctioning, there is little to be gained from replacing it with a newer receiver, as far as sound quality goes. (The exception to that would be if the newer model had a feature that affected the sound.) Generally speaking, if you are dissatisfied with the sound of a system, you should be looking at new speakers, or speaker placement in the room, or the room acoustics. Any decent amplifier, if it is adequate for driving the particular speakers, will sound the same or nearly the same as any other amplifier.

Going back to the power ratings of amplifiers, the ratings for 4 and 8 ohms are telling you about the capabilities of the amplifier. It can put out a certain amount of power into 4 ohms with a certain amount of distortion, and it can put out a certain amount of power into 8 ohms with a certain amount of distortion. How much power it is actually putting out at any given time depends upon the input level, the volume control setting, and the speaker load (impedance).

Oh yeah, and thank your friend for the decent receiver. It should drive most speakers adequately, and it probably has a better FM tuner in is than most new receivers. For reasons that are not entirely clear, many companies put crappy tuners in receivers these days.

And read the manual. It will give you some useful information about your receiver. And thank your friend for being smart enough to keep the manual for your use.

 

[jeannot]

Oh yeah, and thank your friend for the decent receiver. It should drive most speakers adequately, and it probably has a better FM tuner in is than most new receivers. For reasons that are not entirely clear, many companies put crappy tuners in receivers these days.

Agreed, and I see 2 reasons:
1-Real estate, his old tuner probably takes like 20-30 cuin inside, about 20 sqin on the front, a string and pulleys. New tuners take about 2 cuin. Hey, they need room for these other 5 extra amps.
2-FM Content also dropped a lot in quality, people now prefer ipods, Internet radio, Sirius, and own much more music than before. Crappy hardware is good enough for crappy content.

When you think about it, if a manufacturer tried to save money by offering an AV Integrated Amplifier with identical specs as their AVR, they would likely use the exact same hardware, minus a $5 little box inside, and never amortize their cost for the different software.

 

[Pyrrho]

Agreed, and I see 2 reasons:
1-Real estate, his old tuner probably takes like 20-30 cuin inside, about 20 sqin on the front, a string and pulleys. New tuners take about 2 cuin. Hey, they need room for these other 5 extra amps.
2-FM Content also dropped a lot in quality, people now prefer ipods, Internet radio, Sirius, and own much more music than before. Crappy hardware is good enough for crappy content.

When you think about it, if a manufacturer tried to save money by offering an AV Integrated Amplifier with identical specs as their AVR, they would likely use the exact same hardware, minus a $5 little box inside, and never amortize their cost for the different software.

The problem with your theory is that they sometimes manage to put a good tuner in a car stereo, that is very cheap and takes up little space. I have not looked at the latest models, but it was not long ago that one could get a new Pioneer car stereo (CD player and receiver) for $100 that had a very good tuner in it. The tuner could not possibly take up much space or much cost. Yet in the home receivers costing much more, they tend to put in crap for tuners, even of the same brand. It even shows up in the manufacturer specifications for the tuner performance, so you don't have to take my word for it or look too hard for verification of the facts I am relating.

 

[jeannot]

The problem with your theory is that they sometimes manage to put a good tuner in a car stereo, that is very cheap and takes up little space. I have not looked at the latest models, but it was not long ago that one could get a new Pioneer car stereo (CD player and receiver) for $100 that had a very good tuner in it. The tuner could not possibly take up much space or much cost. Yet in the home receivers costing much more, they tend to put in crap for tuners, even of the same brand. It even shows up in the manufacturer specifications for the tuner performance, so you don't have to take my word for it or look too hard for verification of the facts I am relating.

There is difference between a sensitive and a good tuner. Car Radios can be very sensitive, but they can be very noisy too, because engine and road noise is higher. They can also distort, because the rest of the system is mediocre compared to a home system.

Try connecting a car tuner to your stereo in your quiet living room (I tried it with my Alpine). You will hear facts.