Onkyo 806 speaker / subwoofer set up ?

[gwhiz]

All the talk about speaker setups emphasizes large or small speaker setups for the front speakers when using a subwoofer. The manual of the 806 never mentions those terms. In my setup I have the sub set to yes (crossed over @ 80 Hz), the front speakers set to Full Band and Double Bass On. For movies this sounds great, for music midrange sounds weaker. According to the manual this sends the front L & R bass signals to the subwoofer simultaneously. Is this the same as setting the front speakers as small in other receivers?

 

[Midcow2]

You are fine, Onkyo 806 is a great AVR

All the talk about speaker setups emphasizes large or small speaker setups for the front speakers when using a subwoofer. The manual of the 806 never mentions those terms. In my setup I have the sub set to yes (crossed over @ 80 Hz), the front speakers set to Full Band and Double Bass On. For movies this sounds great, for music midrange sounds weaker. According to the manual this sends the front L & R bass signals to the subwoofer simultaneously. Is this the same as setting the front speakers as small in other receivers?

Your setup is okay. On many AVRs it will not simutaneously send bass to fronts and subwoofer, so you set the front speaker to "small" and at the cross over frequency and below it sends sound to the sub. In these AVRs when you set speaker "large" there is no "double bass" and you are basically telling the AVR you have no sub so all frequencies , including bass go to the fronts. The Onkyo 806 is a great AVR if you haven't already figured htat out.

Later,

MidCow2

 

[no. 5]

According to the manual this sends the front L & R bass signals to the subwoofer simultaneously. Is this the same as setting the front speakers as small in other receivers?

No; setting any channel to 'small' in any receiver will implement a high pass filter to that channel - it takes the bass out of that channel and sends it to the subwoofer. If the front speakers are full band, they are not ''small''.

 

[sptrout]

All the talk about speaker setups emphasizes large or small speaker setups for the front speakers when using a subwoofer. The manual of the 806 never mentions those terms. In my setup I have the sub set to yes (crossed over @ 80 Hz), the front speakers set to Full Band and Double Bass On. For movies this sounds great, for music midrange sounds weaker. According to the manual this sends the front L & R bass signals to the subwoofer simultaneously. Is this the same as setting the front speakers as small in other receivers?

The way you have you system setup is almost never recommended:
1. Speakers should almost always be set to small, or the crossover frequency set to around 80Hz (more or less depending on your actual speaker capability). Very few speakers can handle the low frequencies in a digital system, and even if you have one of the few that can having them set to large will probably cause more problems. Did you use Audyssey to setup your system?
2. Double bass should almost never be used (I cannot think of any reason to use it if a system is setup properly).
3. With your speakers set to large and double bass turned on, the AVR sends full bandwidth signals to all speakers that are set to large, and a "copy" for lack of a better term, of all the low frequency content to the subwoofer.
4. If your speakers are set to small then only the frequencies below the crossover frequency is sent to the main speakers with the lower frequencies being sent to the subwoofer, which can properly handle very low frequencies.

I highly recommend that you read the Audyssey Setup Guide located at: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14456895#post14456895

After reading this Guide and applying what it says, I believe that you will notice a big improvement in your system.

 

[gwhiz]

Yes, I ran Audyssey at least 8 times sometimes changing position of the sub or moving the front speakers out wider. Just now ran it, Audyssey set the Fronts @ 40HZ (i thought the fronts would crossover above 80Hz for a small setting?) & the surrounds @ 120Hz. On page 77 of the Onkyo 806 manual Double Bass Function boosts bass output by feeding the bass sounds from the front L & R speakers to the sub.
The sub is an Outlaw LFM-EX, Front speakers are AR 318's towers.

 

[sptrout]

Yes, I ran Audyssey at least 8 times sometimes changing position of the sub or moving the front speakers out wider. Just now ran it, Audyssey set the Fronts @ 40HZ (i thought the fronts would crossover above 80Hz for a small setting?) & the surrounds @ 120Hz. On page 77 of the Onkyo 806 manual Double Bass Function boosts bass output by feeding the bass sounds from the front L & R speakers to the sub.
The sub is an Outlaw LFM-EX, Front speakers are AR 318's towers.

I have an 805 and it is apparently a little different. When Audyssey reports the -3dB points to the AVR, and it is below 80Hz (I believe), then the 805 sets the speaker to "large" not a specific crossover frequency. The user (me) has to go into the setup menu and set the proper crossover frequency, which is usually 80Hz more or less. I set mine at 60Hz because I wanted more bass in the front speakers since my subwoofer is in the near field (behind the main listening position).

40Hz seems very low to me, at least based on the information I could quickly find about your speakers. You must have a high room boost for Audyssey to set the crossover at 40Hz (again, assuming I found the correct speaker info). I would look at the speaker's paper spec and set the crossover at least one octive (2x the speaker spec) higher as a start.

Your quote from the 806 Manual about double bass is correct, but that does not mean that you should use it. First, your speakers will not be able to handle the very low frequencies, which will over work your AVR and may cause distortion. Plus having all that bass flying around your room can cause all kinds of issues.

As a comparsion, my system consists of an 805 with Infinity Beta 50s upfront with a Hsu VTF MK2 with turbo, all located in a room over 5,000 cubic feet. The crossover was set by Audyssey as large for the Betas, which I changed to 60Hz, which is a little less than 2x the 34Hz paper spec of the Beta 50. No double bass.

 

[MDS]

All the talk about speaker setups emphasizes large or small speaker setups for the front speakers when using a subwoofer. The manual of the 806 never mentions those terms. In my setup I have the sub set to yes (crossed over @ 80 Hz), the front speakers set to Full Band and Double Bass On. For movies this sounds great, for music midrange sounds weaker. According to the manual this sends the front L & R bass signals to the subwoofer simultaneously. Is this the same as setting the front speakers as small in other receivers?

No, it is the equivalent of setting the front speakers to Large. 'Full Band' would mean they get the entire frequency range and that is by definition 'Large'.

The reason they did away with the Large vs Small nomenclature is that the receiver allows you to set different xover frequencies for each channel. So if you set it to any frequency that implies Small and that frequency is the xover frequency.

By the way, you would not be able to set Double Bass to On if you did not set the fronts to Large (Full Band). All manufacturers offer some kind of 'double bass' setting but each use a different name (eg. 'LFE+MAIN, Plus, etc). I personally don't use Double Bass but try it and see if you like it...to each his own.

 

[sholling]

1. Speakers should almost always be set to small, or the crossover frequency set to around 80Hz (more or less depending on your actual speaker capability). Very few speakers can handle the low frequencies in a digital system, and even if you have one of the few that can having them set to large will probably cause more problems. Did you use Audyssey to setup your system?

True in the old days. But with today's advanced receivers I strongly disagree. If you have full range mains they should be set to large so that they cross over at a lower frequency. That takes care of bass localization issues. Full range mains might for example cross over at 40-60hz, the center at 120hz, the surrounds at 80 or 100. It's just too easy to place that 80hz sound effect behind you if that's where the subwoofer lives. Audyssey does a pretty good job of deciding where each should crossover.

 

[sptrout]

True in the old days. But with today's advanced receivers I strongly disagree. If you have full range mains they should be set to large so that they cross over at a lower frequency. That takes care of bass localization issues. Full range mains might for example cross over at 40-60hz, the center at 120hz, the surrounds at 80 or 100. It's just too easy to place that 80hz sound effect behind you if that's where the subwoofer lives. Audyssey does a pretty good job of deciding where each should crossover.

No, I think that we actually do agree. If you notice in one of my earlier posts, I have my crossovers set as you describe above (60Hz for the mains for example). My point was that just setting a speaker to "large" usually means sending the full band of audio to the speaker, which is almost always a problem unless you really do have some great speakers. That is different than setting crossovers to specific frequencies.

With my 805 (I assume this applies to many others), Audyssey set my two front speakers and my two surrounds to "large" not a specific frequency. A setting of large would almost for sure have been outside of Audyssey's EQ work. However, with the 805, there is no way to tell what the real crossover frequency Audyssey is recommending. The 805 just said large. If I had not went back and adjusted the crossoevers to 60Hz, all four channels would have been receiving full band audio, which none of my speakers are cabable of.

The problem with most AVRs is that they take the frequency response data from Audyssey and it decides how to set the speaker. Any user, and especially new HT fans, should be very careful when they setup their system. Just do not let Audyssey, or more correctly the AVR, just set the crossovers without checking them.

I just noticed that you have an 906. Did Audyssey set all your speakers to specific crossover frequencies? If yes, then that is probably why you thought that I was saying something different than what I actually did.

 

[gwhiz]

I understand the Onkyo 806 doens't use the terminology for large or small. I'm guessing full range is = to large but I'm still somewhat confused about the equivalent small setting. I'm guessing here the small setting is what Audyssey set the xover freq. for the fronts (50Hz). It set the center & surrounds @ 120Hz. Double bass off. This setting does sound better for music (more midrange) but I'm not sure about movies. The sub is in the front R corner of 17 x 17 room.

 

[sptrout]

Yes, it sounds like the 805 and the 806 are slightly different. The 805 uses "large" for any frequency response reported by Audyssey under ???Hz (not published). This makes it a crap shoot on where to set the actual crossover frequency for any channel already set by the 805 to large.

For real small speakers, it does not use the word "small," but sets an actual frequency; 120Hz for example. It sounds like the 806 sets actual crossover frequencies for all channels, which is an improvement over the 805.

The subwoofer can be a real problem. Before I upgraded to the 805, I did the famous crawl test to determine where to place my subwoofer. Oddly, the test showed that the worst spot for the sub was the place it was origianally sitting (next to the left channel speaker). So, I relocated it to the back of the listening area where I got a big improvement in bass. Later when I upgraded to the 805 and Audyssey, the subwoofer levels where not a problem; sounded great.

I am not sure if my experience means anything in your case though......I have no idea how the system would sound today if the subwoofer was still in its old location. Would have Audyssey still have been able to make it sound as good as I believe that it does today? Who knows. But, I am not moving that beast again to test it!

 

[sholling]

No, I think that we actually do agree. If you notice in one of my earlier posts, I have my crossovers set as you describe above (60Hz for the mains for example). My point was that just setting a speaker to "large" usually means sending the full band of audio to the speaker, which is almost always a problem unless you really do have some great speakers. That is different than setting crossovers to specific frequencies.

With my 805 (I assume this applies to many others), Audyssey set my two front speakers and my two surrounds to "large" not a specific frequency. A setting of large would almost for sure have been outside of Audyssey's EQ work. However, with the 805, there is no way to tell what the real crossover frequency Audyssey is recommending. The 805 just said large. If I had not went back and adjusted the crossoevers to 60Hz, all four channels would have been receiving full band audio, which none of my speakers are cabable of.

The problem with most AVRs is that they take the frequency response data from Audyssey and it decides how to set the speaker. Any user, and especially new HT fans, should be very careful when they setup their system. Just do not let Audyssey, or more correctly the AVR, just set the crossovers without checking them.

I just noticed that you have an 906. Did Audyssey set all your speakers to specific crossover frequencies? If yes, then that is probably why you thought that I was saying something different than what I actually did.

Ok we're on the same page. Yes the 906 set each to its own frequency although it did need some correction. It also does not use the term large. It uses the term "normal" or a specific crossover point.