Older VS Newer Speakers.

[Wabbit]

I hear speakers have advanced a lot. Well with age, my ears are going the opposite direction. My pocketbook is going sideways.

Being objective and not just falling for the shiny new stuff. is it a night and day difference between some of the older stuff?

I have a pair of B&W CDM NT1s and matching center and surrounds. Was thinking of bumping them up to a used pair of 9NTs. and moving the NT1's to the rear channels that are currently 601-S3s

This is pretty much a post of what I might be missing by keeping what I've known. I know I could audition speakers, but realistically, that's always going to be someone else's room.

 

[mono-bloc]

Interesting question, It all comes down to what your used to hearing, and what you think you can expect from an upgrade to a different model or make of speaker.We all get used to hearing what we have, and really it's a matter of opinion if something sounds better or worse. Speakers can only perform with what's fed into them, If it's crap in, then it's normally crap out. Or the reverse is true. Better the signal, better the sound. I would be looking at your amplification first, I would presume your working with an AVR, Which probably does a fine job when it comes to movies, But could probably be a lot better when it comes to two channel music. Really with any up-grade your on a mouse wheel, The more you upgrade, the more there is to upgrade, So you end up with a completely different system, Or like a lot of us, you have two, or three, or four separate systems. And wonder what the hell your doing, with so much gear, and forget about the accumulated costs. Good luck with your choices, Been there and still doing it.

 

[Wabbit]

Yeah. Trying to stay off the mouse wheel. I'm running an outlaw audio amp form an AVR preamp outs. That alone was a big change. Comparing the way some things were made, new purchases often feel like a downgrade. But my experience with new speakers is limited.

 

[lovinthehd]

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Yeah. Trying to stay off the mouse wheel. I'm running an outlaw audio amp form an AVR preamp outs. That alone was a big change. Comparing the way some things were made, new purchases often feel like a downgrade. But my experience with new speakers is limited.

Speakers are the big differences. Amps in avrs vs external are not likely to be any different if suited to purpose unless the onboard amps differ in capabilities needed. Can't imagine using those B&Ws you do, definitely better available than those (and some may not as much amp help as B&W generally does).

 

[Wabbit]

Come over so you don't have to imagine. That's the crux of the question though. I'm tired of hearing opinion. (not to offend anyone, we all obviously have opinion). Just have to say B&W and you get lots of it. How is that hyperbole quantitative though? I don't see anyone testing older stuff as new speakers are done, let alone making a comparison. If you say there is no comparison... are we talking about a 5% return or more?

 

[Wabbit]

I'll say one thing about this hobby. People don't teach people how to listen. Everything get's wrapped up like a wine bottle label. The biz in general needs a master musician/recording engineer Yoda who isn't sponsored to evangelize and teach what sounds good. Too many GR_Research types that make it all sour. Not to detract from my original post. Gene does a great job, but I can only guess from a measurement.

 

[Danzilla31]

Come over so you don't have to imagine. That's the crux of the question though. I'm tired of hearing opinion. (not to offend anyone, we all obviously have opinion). Just have to say B&W and you get lots of it. How is that hyperbole quantitative though? I don't see anyone testing older stuff as new speakers are done, let alone making a comparison. If you say there is no comparison... are we talking about a 5% return or more?

Honestly I have listened to older speakers and loved them and listened to newer speakers and loved them too.

I think you said the perfect point. I LISTENED to them in my room not someone else's.

I think measurements and even listening in other environments are all important to get you started and help give you an idea if ultimately a certain speaker has what your looking for

But ultimately it still has to go into your room and pass the final test which is your ears.

I would say if you trial new and old speakers in your room and you and your ears both enjoy the older speakers that may cost less. Go for it. I know I would.

 

[Danzilla31]

I'll say one thing about this hobby. People don't teach people how to listen. Everything get's wrapped up like a wine bottle label. The biz in general needs a master musician/recording engineer Yoda who isn't sponsored to evangelize and teach what sounds good. Too many GR_Research types that make it all sour. Not to detract from my original post. Gene does a great job, but I can only guess from a measurement.

As far as if newer speakers can perform better there's no doubt that new speakers have benefited from technological progress. It used to be for high output highly dynamic speakers they had to be those big blocks with 12 or 15 inch woofers in them that took up a lot of space and aesthetics weren't the greatest

Now with less size and better aesthetics many speakers even in reasonable price ranges can pull off what those big monster speakers used to be able to

That'd important for a lot of people that can't put speakers in a theater room and need a system that's out in the open.

 

[Wabbit]

Yeah. I wish someone spinoroama testing new product would do the same for the older stuff. It would be enlightening to see the resonance and off axis responses. Just to have a holistic picture of where it's been and is now. Then ya can Kelly Blue Book the ebay prices.

 

[lovinthehd]

Come over so you don't have to imagine. That's the crux of the question though. I'm tired of hearing opinion. (not to offend anyone, we all obviously have opinion). Just have to say B&W and you get lots of it. How is that hyperbole quantitative though? I don't see anyone testing older stuff as new speakers are done, let alone making a comparison. If you say there is no comparison... are we talking about a 5% return or more?

And I'd love for you to come over and hear both newer and older speakers from the same outfit like I do with JBL. In any case with speakers it often simply boils down to taste/preference. I have no B&Ws nor likely ever will.....

 

[fmw]

That the problem is your amplifer is very unlikely unless the amp is defective. The sound of your system is all about speakers and room acoustics. Go listen to speakers and choose what you like. Speaker technology hasn't changed much. it is the combination of design, drivers, crossover networks and enclosures. Every speaker system sounds different from all the others. Don't worry about how old a design is. Worry about whether you like the sound they produce.

 

[highfigh]

I'll say one thing about this hobby. People don't teach people how to listen. Everything get's wrapped up like a wine bottle label. The biz in general needs a master musician/recording engineer Yoda who isn't sponsored to evangelize and teach what sounds good. Too many GR_Research types that make it all sour. Not to detract from my original post. Gene does a great job, but I can only guess from a measurement.

Hang out at some of the local audio stores, if they exist in your area. I don't know where you're located, but some cities have gatherings of people who listen to various equipment and systems. I understand not wanting to let strangers into your home, but it's a thought.

As far as teaching someone how to listen, it's hard to find the right words to describe sound, as it is for describing colors. One of the first things I tell people to do is close their eyes when they listen- it removes light and motion as a stimulus. Then, listen to each instrument, separately- listen for details that aren't obvious, like breath sounds when a horn or wind instrument is played, clicks from drum sticks, the sound 'attack' of any stringed instrument, the 'decay' of individual sounds, anything that sounds like reflected sound and other characteristics that would be audible in the music.

Here's an article from 2012- it's not a bad place to start and another thing I can recommend- learn the definitions of words used for listening, like decay, attack, timbre, etc.

How to Listen and Compare Loudspeakers in a Retail Store

Shopping for and auditioning speakers can be a daunting experience for newcomers to home theater, and even some veterans. There are a myriad of brands, styles, price points, and plenty of opinions.

www.audioholics.com

 

[Wabbit]

That's a good article. I'll have to check out the Harmon software. Paul McGowan has his CD and book, but it mostly about setup and I'm no fan of his salesmanship. Thanks for the link!

 

[Kingnoob]

That's a good article. I'll have to check out the Harmon software. Paul McGowan has his CD and book, but it mostly about setup and I'm no fan of his salesmanship. Thanks for the link!

I’m not sure how you compare brands we got no audio stores left ; bestbuy near me has no magnolia. There Klipch are same as my icons. Good luck finding somewhere to listen to speakers , soundbars, and Bluetooth seems to wiped out Audio stores .
Only pro Audio has big 10-15” woofers like vintage gear , because subs handle that now .

 

[mono-bloc]

Really speakers come down to personal choice and cost. Ideally if you can beg or borrow some examples of what you think you might like. Don't fall into the trap as many do, and visit a dealer to auction something, to find out he's using mega dollar amplification, to demo his speakers. And forget the high volume stunt, there going on about, Turn the volume down if there any good it will pick up that detail, forgotten when using high volume. If your intending to spend a high price get the dealer / seller to home audition for you. If he won't go elsewhere. And if you buy used, never hand over the cash without hearing them first, And remember to remove the front covers To check on condition.

 

[mono-bloc]

I’m not sure how you compare brands we got no audio stores left

That seems quite interesting, for someone who doesn't live in your part of the world. I would have thought that, just about every city would have at least one Audio store, selling entry level to at the very least mid range components. As I said I'm unfamiliar, with audio retail in the US. A while ago I used to buy from AudiogoN, if the seller was prepared to freight to OZ , many would not. About the only people that will entertain the overseas buyer is Suncoast, But due to Government tax's Both there and here at home, High freight costs, and the terrible exchange rates. It's just about put a damper, on any form of buying. We do have a branch of [ Aussie ] Audio Mart, which is very reliable, plus a few big dealers who have a used / 2nd hand market.

 

[Kingnoob]

That seems quite interesting, for someone who doesn't live in your part of the world. I would have thought that, just about every city would have at least one Audio store, selling entry level to at the very least mid range components. As I said I'm unfamiliar, with audio retail in the US. A while ago I used to buy from AudiogoN, if the seller was prepared to freight to OZ , many would not. About the only people that will entertain the overseas buyer is Suncoast, But due to Government tax's Both there and here at home, High freight costs, and the terrible exchange rates. It's just about put a damper, on any form of buying. We do have a branch of [ Aussie ] Audio Mart, which is very reliable, plus a few big dealers who have a used / 2nd hand market.

We used to Like years ago yes , not like they had anything that great. Maybe in the state far away but not this city .
Not like I’m considering upgrading, can’t afford that right now .

It’s just if I were to someday it’s a tech blackout zone .

Rise of non audiophiles and soundbars probably put them out of business.

 

[dlaloum]

IMO - the average speaker quality has improved over the last 40 years...

But the best - has moved only slightly.

A 1985 set of Quad ESL63 electrostatic speakers - sound almost identical to a current brand new set of ESL2912 - which sell for US$14k (last I heard) - you should be able to pick up a 40 year old set of ESL63's refurbished for $2k to $4k max. (I bought a pair for $1k in 1997)

Has the best of the best moved in 40 years.... I am not convinced - I think different designers and different designs focus on different aspects of the sound - which is why speakers sound different from each other.
Fashions have moved - in the 80's there were quite a few wide baffle speakers - nowadays they are almost all narrow baffle - this changes resonances and directivity - but says nothing about speaker quality.

A good condition Boston Acoustics A400 could give most TOTL speakers today a good run for their money - and will typically go for under $1k.(and I would bet it would outperform the best that BA make and sell today! - but it would need to have been refurbed in the last 10 years)

So yeah - lots of sideways movement, not so much upwards movement.

Has there been "evolution" - sure there has... but lets not fall for the fallacy that evolution involves improvement - it just involves adaptation to a changing environment - the end result may or may not be superior.
The driver for change is more likely to be fashion than performance in any case! (but it always affects performance)

 

[highfigh]

I’m not sure how you compare brands we got no audio stores left ; bestbuy near me has no magnolia. There Klipch are same as my icons. Good luck finding somewhere to listen to speakers , soundbars, and Bluetooth seems to wiped out Audio stores .
Only pro Audio has big 10-15” woofers like vintage gear , because subs handle that now .

Internet sales wiped out audio stores- soundbars and BT had very little to do with it because B&M stores were already gone before they became better/more popular.

 

[highfigh]

Really speakers come down to personal choice and cost. Ideally if you can beg or borrow some examples of what you think you might like. Don't fall into the trap as many do, and visit a dealer to auction something, to find out he's using mega dollar amplification, to demo his speakers. And forget the high volume stunt, there going on about, Turn the volume down if there any good it will pick up that detail, forgotten when using high volume. If your intending to spend a high price get the dealer / seller to home audition for you. If he won't go elsewhere. And if you buy used, never hand over the cash without hearing them first, And remember to remove the front covers To check on condition.

The only places that might use "mega dollar amplification" also sell that kind- if you want to avoid this "trap", tell them up front that your system doesn't have any expensive amplifiers and they should be able to accommodate you without much effort.