Old Versus New Technology Etc.

[KennethP]

Hi all

I spent quite a bit of time looking through the forums today. I am not a very active user of this site but found today's reading interesting. Here are a few thoughts coming from a guy who was lucky enough to experience the hey-days of home Hi-Fi. Yes, I am talking about the late sixties to the early eighties.

For those of you not aware, the growth of high end home audio has been in decline since the mid eighties. Home theater systems are creating a bit of an upswing but none of the people I know who are in the component distribution and manufacturing business think high end audio will ever see the growth it did in the late sixties and all the seventies.

Coming from background in radio and the studio industry I watched JBL, Altec and Tannoy dominate the monitor industry for years, for good reason! These large format monitors were dynamic as hell! Accuracy in electronically reproduced sound is an interesting idea but virtually unattainable. I can't speak for everyone, but have never heard a sound system that can 100% accurately reproduce the sound of a symphony in a well designed auditorium. The variables are just to great for a single, or group of components to overcome. What about the room itself?

Furthermore, have you ever heard a monitor in an anechoic chamber? Trust me you have never heard something so lifeless and dead.......yuk!

It would appear the only reason for anechoic chambers is to create a baseline that manufacturer's use to create a speaker system that is colored to their liking or signature? JBL developed and capitalised on that West Coast Sound that still gives me a rush to this day. Flat response....no thanks!

That being said I have heard some pretty incredible systems over the last 45 years.

Lastly, you are never going to get a "NEW" world class system spending a few grand. I'll let you in on what appears to be a little known secret. Take that 5 or 10 grand and buy some dated high end components 10 to 15 years old. Instead of spending 40k on a new Boulder amp, find a used Boulder 500AE for 2k and it will out perform most 10k amps out there. Make some calls and try to find a pair of Westlake BBSM series monitors or large format JBL's or Tannoy's.

Some of these monitors sell for well over 50k to this day. I was at Westlake Audio in Newbury Park, California last January and they were doing the final listening tests on a pair of BBSM15's with custom Subs for non other than Will Smith. He is using them for his home theater room. These babies cost well over 50k direct from Westlake. Here is the clincher, I bought a pair for my brother from a guy in New York for 5k. They were scratched up a bit but sound fantastic. Most of you young guys have never even heard of Westlake. For 10k there is not a "NEW" system out there that is in the same league.

More later...

PS: Let the hate mail begin

Ken

 

[mtrycrafts]

Flat response....no thanks!
Ken

No hate mail, Ken
You are just out of touch with the real audio industry, it seems.

• These tests determined that the characteristics that people preferred in speakers were:
- Low Distortion
- Flat Response and wide bandwidth
- Wide Dispersion
http://miragespeakers.com/nrc_story.shtml

There is a reason for research, good research, not speculations.

 

[stratman]

"For those of you not aware, the growth of high end home audio has been in decline since the mid eighties. Home theater systems are creating a bit of an upswing but none of the people I know who are in the component distribution and manufacturing business think high end audio will ever see the growth it did in the late sixties and all the seventies"

I don't believe its high end home audio, but 2 channel high end audio in general. Look at the big names that jumped into the HT market: Krell, Mark Levinson to name two. The younger generation is not too thrilled with 2.0 sound and as they mature and become more affluent (being raised on 5.1 minimum)they'll buy high end multi-channel gear. Remember when FM replaced AM, color did in b/w tv, and lastly to quote a one hit group of the 80's: video killed the radio star.

 

[Sheep]

Times change, technology changes to cope.

The average person doesn't sit down and listen to a whole CD, or even parts of it anymore. Most people play music while they're doing something else. And now with the advent of surround and DVDs with decent picture and sound, people want to watch and hear at the same time.

Companies have to cater to the market. If people want little cube systems and a flat TV, thats what will be made.

Video killed the 2 channel store.

SheepStar

 

[KennethP]

No hate mail, Ken
You are just out of touch with the real audio industry, it seems.

• These tests determined that the characteristics that people preferred in speakers were:
- Low Distortion
- Flat Response and wide bandwidth
- Wide Dispersion
http://miragespeakers.com/nrc_story.shtml

There is a reason for research, good research, not speculations.

I appreciate you not slamming me for my opinion. Perhaps were not as far apart as you think. I will respond a little later.

Ken

 

[RLA]

For you young whipper snappers do you remember when we were all salivating over Quad albums in the early 70's? I remember as a young pup as my dad explained the audiophile qualities to me in great detail as we listened through a pair of vintage Dynaco speakers. Yes indeed we were on cutting edge of technology back then. Thirty years later can it get any better? Well go compare one of your reference DVD-Audio disks to the Quad albums from the 70's and you will realize that we have become significantly smarter over the past 30 years. Don’t get me wrong I still enjoy the sound of a pair of vintage K-Horns but electronic equipment progress just gets better with time. To bad we humans don’t share the same physical attributes.

 

[mtrycrafts]

To bad we humans don’t share the same physical attributes.

Evolutions is a bit slower in progressing

 

[mtrycrafts]

I appreciate you not slamming me for my opinion.
Ken

Cannot slam an opinion We are discussing and exchanging, hopefully learning from it

 

[Seth=L]

Nice Kenneth, I would tend to agree with you on the amplifiers and some speakers of those years.

Funny thing is you only have 5 posts over the spread of almost 2 years, you should visit more often.

 

[silversurfer]

Engineering tools, measurement tools, etc. have all gotten better, as well as understanding what to measure.

 

[wire]

Times change, technology changes to cope.

The average person doesn't sit down and listen to a whole CD, or even parts of it anymore. Most people play music while they're doing something else. And now with the advent of surround and DVDs with decent picture and sound, people want to watch and hear at the same time.

Companies have to cater to the market. If people want little cube systems and a flat TV, thats what will be made.

Video killed the 2 channel store.

SheepStar

WOW
Thats really to bad , to really get into music . You shouldbe listining to it , not doing anything else . I'm a dancer so i do do other things when i listin to Salsa ( or any ) , But i really concentrate on the rythem of the music , if i dont i cant dance that well to song . I love doing sessions , just listing to music in my house ( if it is with my Bryston/ Carver ) or with my bedroom 2 channel * Carver / Onix sp3 ) .
I agree with the original post ( for now ) , we will see if the main streem company's can get something going , for the masses .
I heard this before " you have to slow down and listin to the music " .
You dont have to muti-task every second of your life .
I have a 5.1 system for movies only and thats all its good for .

 

[KennethP]

Cannot slam an opinion We are discussing and exchanging, hopefully learning from it

Ahh, and a wise man as well. a little segway...

When I was 20 I can remember thinking I would know plenty by the time I was 30. At 30 I can remember saying OK, when I am 40.

I am 54 and still don't know a damned thing. Maybe at 60?

My main point was the measurements establish a baseline. No question, wide bandwidth, low distortion and flat frequency response etc are critical factors in speaker design. Anechoic chambers are one of the tools that help create the reference point. Let's remember that flat does not sound very good in the real world.

I am truly shocked by what I hear coming out of mid-fi retail stores these days. Complete systems being flogged as high quality for a couple of grand. In my day your average sales person in a mid to high end store was at least well informed even if they did not carry it. Is it their fault? Nope, the main stream part of the industry simply took the path of least resistance. They stopped selling and started supplying. Truly sad...

A better example yet is the proliferation of would be recording engineers being pumped out of technical schools that don't have a clue what sounds good because they have learned on the cheapest mass produced crap available. Kick drums sounding like someones beating the crap out of a cardboard box....pathetic!

Timbre......isn't that something you yell when a tree is falling!

There, now I feel better. The phone just rang.....they say I can go home now...my cage is clean.

Later guys

 

[stratman]

I have an affinity for "old" tech, stuff like Echoplexes, Electro-Harmonix (the original stuff) JBL. I know it doesn't make sense, but this stuff had soul. I walked into an old abandoned recording studio that was being remodeled into a conference complex, the old board was still there, the room was wood paneled, lots of patch cables laying about, all very surreal. Later I found out that Rod Stuart cut an album there and some post-mixing was done there for the Stones and the Beatles.

 

[mtrycrafts]

There, now I feel better. The phone just rang.....they say I can go home now...my cage is clean.

Later guys

Ah, you are killing me

And no, not flat top 20k but if the recording studios had such speakers, they would certainly master the music to reflect the preference of some roll off at the upper end. If the speaker at home is also rolled off, then you are really missing out on something at the upper end, probably gone. So, where next then?

 

[KennethP]

Ah, you are killing me

And no, not flat top 20k but if the recording studios had such speakers, they would certainly master the music to reflect the preference of some roll off at the upper end. If the speaker at home is also rolled off, then you are really missing out on something at the upper end, probably gone. So, where next then?

All kidding aside, I would agree that new technology has plenty to offer. I have recently added 2 Deqx PDC's to my system. I needed 2 due to the fact my monitors are 4-way.

www.deqx.com

Until adding these I had never heard anything that came close to the quality of the Westlake HRX 4-way crossover. They don't sound digital like every other DSP system I had tried and are a bargain considering what they do. I don't use any of the automated abilities they are capable of but use the the crossover FIR filters, Eq and BB Dacs. The amps are all upgraded Boulder AE Series. I have 2x 500's; 2x 250's and 2x 102's. The system is stunning in it's dynamic range and clarity. The compression drivers use beryllium diaphragms which are far superior sounding to aluminum and titanium. At 450+ lbs each, you don't want to move them around any more than you have to.

Later Guys

Ken