Old PC home audio

[Guillermo Daniel]

Hi every one! Guillermo from Argentina writing here.

I have a newbie question for you. Strangely, i feel it should be a common question, but i cant find anyone on the internet with the exact same problem. I have a lot of questions for different possible setups, so I hear any recomendation from you.

Mainly, I'm trying to design a audio setup using an Old PC as the main source of Music. In descending order of importance, I'll also like to include a turntable, blutooth conectivity (for streaming from my cellphone) and connecting my TV to avoid using the integrated speakers. I alredy own a pair of (decent?) speakers. In any case, I'll improve them later (should i go for subwoofer?).

The most important part is then the PC. My old computer has no digital audio outputs, so I was thinking about using an external DAC to increase sound quality. In this context the only solution I found is to use an USB DAC (as the Dragonfly) and wire the analog output from the DAC to an analog input of an AV receiver, then the speakers. Then, my first question is: As the AV receiver includes a internal DAC, is there another way to get a digital signal out of my pc and conect it directly to a digital input on the AV receiver?

Next in importance is the turntable. I own one with a phono output, and i see that a phono to line pre amp is at least $150, but new turntables with integrated preamp are around $100 (example Audiotechnica). Most AV receivers dont have a phono input. The sound quality of the latter is much worst than the separate turntable + preamp?



Thanks a lot, and sorry for grammar errors. I hope my english is understandable enough.

Guillermo.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

Welcome. Are you planning for stereo setup or surround setup? What speakers you have now? What is your budget for avr/sub/possibly other upgrades?

 

[killdozzer]

I explored USB DAC a lot as I wanted to use one for the same purpose. As you say, your AVR has a DAC inbuilt, but you need an appropriate connection in order to use it. You have to look for some compatible set of ins and outs between the PC and the AVR. Check what digital inputs does your AVR have and then look for them on your PC. USB is a common one but still somewhat rare in AVR’s. Another usable is HDMI, but you have to check whether your PC has a HDMI out.

Before you go through all that trouble, check what audio card your PC has (is it a desktop PC or Laptop?), it is very possible you will not improve much by bypassing PC’s DAC. You will improve only if you have an old, poorly designed DAC on your PC audio card.

Depending how new your AVR is you might use a wireless connection.

 

[slipperybidness]

Hi every one! Guillermo from Argentina writing here.

I have a newbie question for you. Strangely, i feel it should be a common question, but i cant find anyone on the internet with the exact same problem. I have a lot of questions for different possible setups, so I hear any recomendation from you.

Mainly, I'm trying to design a audio setup using an Old PC as the main source of Music. In descending order of importance, I'll also like to include a turntable, blutooth conectivity (for streaming from my cellphone) and connecting my TV to avoid using the integrated speakers. I alredy own a pair of (decent?) speakers. In any case, I'll improve them later (should i go for subwoofer?).

The most important part is then the PC. My old computer has no digital audio outputs, so I was thinking about using an external DAC to increase sound quality. In this context the only solution I found is to use an USB DAC (as the Dragonfly) and wire the analog output from the DAC to an analog input of an AV receiver, then the speakers. Then, my first question is: As the AV receiver includes a internal DAC, is there another way to get a digital signal out of my pc and conect it directly to a digital input on the AV receiver?

Next in importance is the turntable. I own one with a phono output, and i see that a phono to line pre amp is at least $150, but new turntables with integrated preamp are around $100 (example Audiotechnica). Most AV receivers dont have a phono input. The sound quality of the latter is much worst than the separate turntable + preamp?



Thanks a lot, and sorry for grammar errors. I hope my english is understandable enough.

Guillermo.

@killdozzer

Personally I avoid USB connections whenever possible, for any application, including audio! I have had many many USB issues in industrial applications and therefore I don't use USB if it can be avoided. The only advantages of USB--It's ubiquitous, and it can carry power and signal in a single connection.

Furthermore, internal to a computer chassis is a noisy environment and often has an inadequate power supply. For these reasons, it is BEST to pass the audio signal out of the computer in the digital domain, then do the analog conversion outside the computer chassis. If you insist on doing the D/A conversion inside the chassis, then the best bet is to use a shielded sound card and a good power supply.

Indeed, the computer DAC may be fine, but it' the noisy environment and likely poor power supply that make this non-ideal for analog signals. For the record, I have used analog outs from some computers and it sounded great, but on other computers it sounded like crap (not subtle difference, but very audible noise).

If the OP's Computer has an optical out or HDMI out, then that is the choice. If not, then I would simply install a cheap PCI card that has an optical output, and run that to the AVR. Something along these lines:
https://www.amazon.com/SainSonic-Channel-Surround-Optical-CMI8768/dp/B01LXNYIAB/ref=sr_1_2?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1485271254&sr=1-2&keywords=pci+sound+card+optical+out

OP, what Turntable do you already have? That may influence the decision there. And, I would bump up priority on getting the audio off the crappy TV speakers and onto the AVR.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I explored USB DAC a lot as I wanted to use one for the same purpose. As you say, your AVR has a DAC inbuilt, but you need an appropriate connection in order to use it. You have to look for some compatible set of ins and outs between the PC and the AVR. Check what digital inputs does your AVR have and then look for them on your PC. USB is a common one but still somewhat rare in AVR’s. Another usable is HDMI, but you have to check whether your PC has a HDMI out.

Given it's old pc chances are it's missing hdmi out and chances of AVR with usb in (for pc connectivity) is less than chance of snowball in hell. I know one of one device which has such usb input and technically it's not AVR at all - https://outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html
But KD, does have a point - it maybe possible for you to get a cheap usb to spdif adapter - even old pc have usb ports, like this one : https://www.amazon.com/External-Adapter-Optical-Windows-SD-AUD20101/dp/B006SF68P2/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1485268139&sr=8-4&keywords=usb+digital+audio

Before you go through all that trouble, check what audio card your PC has (is it a desktop PC or Laptop?), it is very possible you will not improve much by bypassing PC’s DAC. You will improve only if you have an old, poorly designed DAC on your PC audio card.

I disagree to a point. Onboard sound dac often suffer from poor RFI insulation.

Depending how new your AVR is you might use a wireless connection.

If it supports Airplay - this one might be great option.

 

[killdozzer]

and chances of AVR with usb in (for pc connectivity) is less than chance of snowball in hell.

Not that rare. This was something I was going for, so I found it on many units. USB B (some of which even install their own software on your PC).

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Not that rare. This was something I was going for, so I found it on many units. USB B (some of which even install their own software on your PC).

{{Citation needed}}

 

[MrBoat]

I've used an older pc for audio input up until about a month ago or so. The stock soundcard in a 2005 Dell Dimension PC was an HD card and it sounded great, going from the mini (3mm?) jack to the analog inputs of either an integrated stereo amp or the AVR via a Y cord both worked. I have an even older (1990's) Dell with a sound blaster card that also works great. None of these 3 pc's had any audible noise.

I was also able to run aftermarket, 2.1 pc speakers on both of these machines without issue and is perhaps why I waited so long to upgrade.

 

[slipperybidness]

I've used an older pc for audio input up until about a month ago or so. The stock soundcard in a 2005 Dell Dimension PC was an HD card and it sounded great, going from the mini (3mm?) jack to the analog inputs of either an integrated stereo amp or the AVR via a Y cord both worked. I have an even older (1990's) Dell with a sound blaster card that also works great. None of these 3 pc's had any audible noise.

I was also able to run aftermarket, 2.1 pc speakers on both of these machines without issue and is perhaps why I waited so long to upgrade.

The worst of the bunch in my experience was a Dell Inspirion Tower. The analog outs on that one were terribly noisy! Granted, that was a bottom of the barrel Dell.

In general, I say "try it and see" before spending $ to fix a problem that you don't have.

But, in your case, I say "you probably got lucky".

 

[MrBoat]

The worst of the bunch in my experience was a Dell Inspirion Tower. The analog outs on that one were terribly noisy! Granted, that was a bottom of the barrel Dell.

In general, I say "try it and see" before spending $ to fix a problem that you don't have.

But, in your case, I say "you probably got lucky".

Extremely lucky perhaps, since the previous two I bastardized with repairs over the years. I did end up outliving the power supplies in both machines and replaced them with more current replacements after the fact.

Still, a Y cord is a cheap enough way to find out.

 

[Guillermo Daniel]

First of all, thank you for all your responses!

Are you planning for stereo setup or surround setup? What speakers you have now? What is your budget for avr/sub/possibly other upgrades?

Stereo. I'm not sure about a 2.1 setup. I have a pair of brandless, 6W 3.2 Ohm speakers and nothing else. I' might be able to change them, but the thing is that im traveling to the US next week and prices there are much lower in audio stuff than in my cuntry. So I tought in buying the rest of the chain there (for ease of transporting) and buy the speakers later in my country. My budget is between 400$ and 500$ for everything except the speakers if i can use the one i have while i save some extra money.

Before you go through all that trouble, check what audio card your PC has (is it a desktop PC or Laptop?), it is very possible you will not improve much by bypassing PC’s DAC. You will improve only if you have an old, poorly designed DAC on your PC audio card.

Its a desktop dell PC. All the information about my sound card I could find in the device manager is that is a "Sound Max Integrated Digital High Definition Audio". It only has a headphone out and a mic/line in. My PC hasn't HDMI output either. Thats why I was thinking using a USB to get a digital audio out to an AVR.

Extremely lucky perhaps, since the previous two I bastardized with repairs over the years. I did end up outliving the power supplies in both machines and replaced them with more current replacements after the fact.
Still, a Y cord is a cheap enough way to find out.

One question on your discussion with slipperybidnes: I found some agreement on the internet about the poor quality of integrated sound cards analogue output but i havent heard it myself. The problem is only the added noise or there is an increse in audio quality (comming from a better quality Digital to Analog convertion for example) ?

 

[slipperybidness]

First of all, thank you for all your responses!



Stereo. I'm not sure about a 2.1 setup. I have a pair of brandless, 6W 3.2 Ohm speakers and nothing else. I' might be able to change them, but the thing is that im traveling to the US next week and prices there are much lower in audio stuff than in my cuntry. So I tought in buying the rest of the chain there (for ease of transporting) and buy the speakers later in my country. My budget is between 400$ and 500$ for everything except the speakers if i can use the one i have while i save some extra money.



Its a desktop dell PC. All the information about my sound card I could find in the device manager is that is a "Sound Max Integrated Digital High Definition Audio". It only has a headphone out and a mic/line in. My PC hasn't HDMI output either. Thats why I was thinking using a USB to get a digital audio out to an AVR.




One question on your discussion with slipperybidnes: I found some agreement on the internet about the poor quality of integrated sound cards analogue output but i havent heard it myself. The problem is only the added noise or there is an increse in audio quality (comming from a better quality Digital to Analog convertion for example) ?

DACs are a commodity chip nowadays. Don't over think the DAC choice.

I'm concerned about noise and power supply quality inside the computer chassis, that's all. I prefer to pass the signal outside the computer in the digital domain to avoid those problems. I'm not concerned about the quality of my DAC (this is 2017!).

20 to 30 years ago, I would have given a different opinion, but not today.

I don't go searching for problems to solve! Either my music sounds great and I'm happy, or there is some audible artifact or degradation to the sound and only then will I look to solve a problem.

 

[Guillermo Daniel]

I'm concerned about noise and power supply quality inside the computer chassis, that's all. I prefer to pass the signal outside the computer in the digital domain to avoid those problems. I'm not concerned about the quality of my DAC (this is 2017!).

so the best choice will be to buy a PCI sound card with an optical audio out?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

so the best choice will be to buy a PCI sound card with an optical audio out?

I disagree. cheap usb interface to optical out I linked above is better choice than installing pcie sound card which would be wasted on this.

 

[TLS Guy]

I explored USB DAC a lot as I wanted to use one for the same purpose. As you say, your AVR has a DAC inbuilt, but you need an appropriate connection in order to use it. You have to look for some compatible set of ins and outs between the PC and the AVR. Check what digital inputs does your AVR have and then look for them on your PC. USB is a common one but still somewhat rare in AVR’s. Another usable is HDMI, but you have to check whether your PC has a HDMI out.

Before you go through all that trouble, check what audio card your PC has (is it a desktop PC or Laptop?), it is very possible you will not improve much by bypassing PC’s DAC. You will improve only if you have an old, poorly designed DAC on your PC audio card.

Depending how new your AVR is you might use a wireless connection.

If there is no digital out, then the computer is old enough the DAC will be awful. They all were back then. Also the ground plane of those old tower PCs was typically dreadful, so he is highly likely to get a loud hum.

If he is using a PC for home audio, then he needs a computer that has no sound card, and one that can be connected to an external DAC.

For Hi-Fi use there is nothing like building it yourself, and then it is done right and will not have issues. I went through this at the dawn of computer audio and ended up building mine in 2002 and I'm still using it! For AV I have an HTPC which I also built.

To stand a chance of salvaging that old PC, Bored has the right approach, and the only one with any chance of success.

 

[slipperybidness]

I disagree. cheap usb interface to optical out I linked above is better choice than installing pcie sound card which would be wasted on this.

If it were me, my first choice is a cheap sound card with optical out. Followed by your suggestion of a cheap USB interface with optical out.

Either will accomplish the same goal.

I have a personal disdain for USB due to personal experience not related to audio, that's the only reason I prefer the PCI card to optical out approach.

TBH, if it were me, I would probably just hook up USB input to my Emotiva DAC and call it a day

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

If it were me, my first choice is a cheap sound card with optical out. Followed by your suggestion of a cheap USB interface with optical out.

Either will accomplish the same goal.

I have a personal disdain for USB due to personal experience not related to audio, that's the only reason I prefer the PCI card to optical out approach.

Agreed. But I have a disdain for small companies (mostly from far east, making horrible drivers) where usb device is likely to rely on Microsoft's build-in drivers (generally very stable and get updated with windows) - the situation with pci add-on cards - they likely to require vendor provided drivers (which quality may vary drastically). Case in point - Creative never bothered to get SoundBlaster ZS 2 drivers updated pass 2010, which was fairly popular product from a major company. One of that card functionality (a gameport) is missing driver and is shown with warning in windows device manager like a sore thumb. Not that it makes any difference ether way, but slightly annoying to see it.

 

[slipperybidness]

Agreed. But I have a disdain for small companies (mostly from far east, making horrible drivers) where usb device is likely to rely on Microsoft's build-in drivers (generally very stable and get updated with windows) - the situation with pci add-on cards - they likely to require vendor provided drivers (which quality may vary drastically). Case in point - Creative never bothered to get SoundBlaster ZS 2 drivers updated pass 2010, which was fairly popular product from a major company. One of that card functionality (a gameport) is missing driver and is shown with warning in windows device manager like a sore thumb. Not that it makes any difference ether way, but slightly annoying to see it.

Ok, you make a good point about drivers. I never had that problem so I didnt consider that.

When I had a similar issue as the OP years ago, I solved it with the PCI card just to get an optical audio output, no problems.

Nowadays, most computers have integrated audio and I simply pass audio in digi domain. My vid card has a jumper input for audio, then both go out to AVR via a single HDMI. Clean and easy install

 

[Guillermo Daniel]

Then the first part is decided, USB to Optical audio interface to an AVR. Now i should decide if I keep my turntable and get a preamp or buy a new one.

Apart from this, i have some questions about subwoofers. If I'll be playing a stereo track from the PC (this is, two signals, for two speakers) does have sense to use a subwoofer? What signal does it play then?

 

[KenM10759]

Get a phono amp. Mine cost me $79, a Pro-Ject Phono Box MM. Hit NeedleDoctor.com to see some choices.