OK, I cave, I have to ask

F

FNG212

Audioholic
What is the difference between "monitors", "bookshelves" etc? I get that floor-standings do just that, but I really don't understand what classifies a speaker as a "monitor". The best guess I can come up with is that is bigger than a bookshelf but smaller than floor-standing.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
There is none.

"bookshelf" generally denotes a size. In the old days, they actually were made to put on bookshelves, back to the wall, but some got quite large with 10 and 12" woofers. One needed sturdy bookshelves in those days.

Also, if they were ported, it was via the front. Nowadays, it's generally on the back which precludes mounting them against a wall.

Nowadays, most have 6 1/2" or smaller woofers and actually sound better on a stand away from all walls.

a "monitor" is technically a speaker that's used in a studio and used in the recording process but, in reality, most times it's simply a term applied to a bookshelf speaker as part of the marketing process.

A true monitor is supposed to provide a flat response and show up any defect in the recording, which may or may not be a good thing. Many are designed to operate in a a"near field" situation.
 
F

FNG212

Audioholic
Thank you very much.

I am going to ask another question instead of starting a new thread:

What does f/3 = (xx)Hz mean? I am guessing it means the third order falloff frequency.

Thanks.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Thank you very much.

I am going to ask another question instead of starting a new thread:

What does f/3 = (xx)Hz mean? I am guessing it means the third order falloff frequency.

Thanks.
Can't really help ya. That's a bit beyond me. I'll assume someone more knowledgeable in speaker design will take over from here.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Thank you very much.

I am going to ask another question instead of starting a new thread:

What does f/3 = (xx)Hz mean? I am guessing it means the third order falloff frequency.

Thanks.
Can't really help ya. That's a bit beyond me. I'll assume someone more knowledgeable in speaker design will take over from here.

I assume you meant the F3.

This is the point at which a woofer or speaker system rolls off -3db from the reference volume for the system.

The F10 is also mentioned sometimes and is when the speakers is -10db from the reference volume for the system.

;)
 
F

FNG212

Audioholic
I guess then the next question is:

What is defined as "reference" level of a speaker? Is it an absolute volume (ie. 95dB) or a relative/subjective level?
 
split0101

split0101

Junior Audioholic
I guess then the next question is:

What is defined as "reference" level of a speaker? Is it an absolute volume (ie. 95dB) or a relative/subjective level?
Good question, thats something that I always wanted to know.
 
ozmedia

ozmedia

Audioholic
I guess then the next question is:

What is defined as "reference" level of a speaker? Is it an absolute volume (ie. 95dB) or a relative/subjective level?
Reference is a horribly misused term unfortunately that simply can't be trusted from many builders (outside of the high end, reputable uilders) these days, just like 'digital speakers'.

Most people feel that a reference speaker is an immaculate, high-end speaker used by studios as a transparent monitor. However when I was working in a studio I found that reference models were often the cheapest little boxes you'd ever seen. They used them to hear what the output to a pair of 'average' home speakers will sound like, a cheap pair of headphones or a ghetto blaster, for example. So really a studio reference wasn't really something to be sought out as he ultimate speaker.

However, there ARE companies out there who designate their high end products as reference series, mainly due the the public image that reference speakers are the creme de la creme of the product line.

Such speakers are generally using the builder's most expensive drivers, cabinetry and crossover designs. Most reference speakers these days seem to incorporate phase plugs in the drivers, an indication of their elite high end status.

So it is mixed and the jury is still out.

To a recording studio it is just a speaker they use to reference other systems, which includes cheap two-channel 'mid-fi' systems and headphones.

To a consumer it is an indicator of elite staus, a perfect speaker.

To manufacturer's it is a way to indicate THEIR most elite product.

To a CHEAPO white van speaker provider, it is a marketing tool used just as 'digital' speakers is in order to fool the pulic into thinking it's high end.

Confused yet? :)


The 95dB you refer to is the sensitivity of the speaker. The output sound pressure level resulting from 1 watt of pink noise tested from one meter away.
 
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lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I assume you meant the F3.

This is the point at which a woofer or speaker system rolls off -3db from the reference volume for the system.

The F10 is also mentioned sometimes and is when the speakers is -10db from the reference volume for the system.

;)
In this instance it is considered the sensitivity of the system usually at 1 watt.

But I would consider it the average response in the speakers used range

So a 90db speaker will be at f3 when the db at 1 watt hits 87db. Now I never suggest running a ported system down to it's F3 unfiltered. A High pass filter should be placed above it's F3 one general rule is to double the f3.

The reason for filtering above the F3 is to prevent over excursion as well reducing distortion and even port noise in some cases.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Reference is a horribly misused term unfortunately that simply can't be trusted from many builders (outside of the high end, reputable uilders) these days, just like 'digital speakers'.

Most people feel that a reference speaker is an immaculate, high-end speaker used by studios as a transparent monitor. However when I was working in a studio I found that reference models were often the cheapest little boxes you'd ever seen. They used them to hear what the output to a pair of 'average' home speakers will sound like, a cheap pair of headphones or a ghetto blaster, for example. So really a studio reference wasn't really something to be sought out as he ultimate speaker.

However, there ARE companies out there who designate their high end products as reference series, mainly due the the public image that reference speakers are the creme de la creme of the product line.

Such speakers are generally using the builder's most expensive drivers, cabinetry and crossover designs. Most reference speakers these days seem to incorporate phase plugs in the drivers, an indication of their elite high end status.

So it is mixed and the jury is still out.

To a recording studio it is just a speaker they use to reference other systems, which includes cheap two-channel 'mid-fi' systems and headphones.

To a consumer it is an indicator of elite staus, a perfect speaker.

To manufacturer's it is a way to indicate THEIR most elite product.

To a CHEAPO white van speaker provider, it is a marketing tool used just as 'digital' speakers is in order to fool the pulic into thinking it's high end.

Confused yet? :)


The 95dB you refer to is the sensitivity of the speaker. The output sound pressure level resulting from 1 watt of pink noise tested from one meter away.
I suggest a thorough reading of the topic next time. You got the wrong impression and then got on your soap box. :)

Though it's very enertaining I admit. :p

We were discussing various aspects of speaker specs not labels. :)

Reference in this case was referring to the overall volume of the system at 1w:)
 
F

FNG212

Audioholic
I should have specified in my example that I meant 95dB SPL, not sensitivity. But I appreciate all the responses.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
What is defined as "reference" level of a speaker? Is it an absolute volume (ie. 95dB) or a relative/subjective level?
Most people feel that a reference speaker is an immaculate, high-end speaker used by studios as a transparent monitor.
'Reference' is a very broad term used in different contexts in the AV world.


What 'Reference' in general means for an AV setup is that, it creates the ability for the listener to hear/see exactly what the creator(s) intended. In the broad sense, all of the interpretations can be categorized as one of two; Quality and Standard.

Reference Quality:
Something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison, which is, regarding quality of recordings, electronics, speakers, rooms, etc. Here the “authority” is scientific measurement and ‘general consent’ can be found in the ‘Software, Movies & Music’ section of the forum.

But what does that mean in the real world?
Source: This varies depending on media and recording and is achieved more from anecdotal referrals rather than measured/ tangible quantities. It means, all else being equal, the recording helps understand if a setup is good or bad. Or, it will sound good on a good setup and bad on a bad one.
Electronics/ speaker: Equipment that does not change the signal when compared to the source. So for a speaker, AVR, pre-pro, amp, TV, PJ, etc. it means, they need to have a flat frequency response between the max and min range of the signal. On the audio side, oversimplifying it, if the creator(s) want you to hear 400Hz at 75dB, your setup plays it as such. On the video side, if the creator intended you to see brightness of 75% max for color 25% Red, 30% Blue and 45% Green, your display produces it as such.
Room: Now this one is the most difficult to create since it is a combination of the above and needs to account for room factors. On the audio side, it needs to have a minimum ambient noise level and not boost or cut frequencies due to overlap as sound waves bounce between the boundaries (walls). On the video side, the ambient light should not effect yours eyes in a manner that the perceived video characteristics change. Light control for a room is easy, make the walls dark and keep the blinds closed :).


Reference Standard:
A rule or principle that is used as a basis for judgment. Something that stays consistent irrespective of your measurement principle and tools.

But what does that mean in the real world?
This is easier to explain. It is like saying, "my Reference Standard for time is Seconds". Since, determination, measurement and communication of what we mean by a 'Second' in scientific terms must/will be identical.

On the audio side, Dolby, DD, DD-HD, THX, THX-Ultra, THX-Select, DTS, DTS-ES, DTS-MA, etc. are all 'Reference Standards' and on the video side, they are PAL, NTSE, RGB, etc. NOTE: What is not Reference Standard are the various "matrixed sound processing" options offered by AVRs like, "Music", "Game" or "Stadium" or "Club", etc. since each manufacturers interpretation and implementation of this nebulous sound will be different. Or for the same reason, on displays, "Dynamic", "Sports", etc. never correspond with a Reference Standard for displays.

What this means is, any creator(s) of media will have to adhere to specific rules when making recordings for a standard of their choice. But, it does not end there. Both Dolby and THX also have specifications for electronics, speakers and rooms. Meaning, if an amp is THX "approved" and sports their ubiquitous logo, it has met certain specifications for what it does with the incoming signal, the components used, the design and implementation of the circuits, etc.


-------------
Sidebar:

Let's say, I make the some milkshake and the world and agrees that it brings the most boys to the yard, so, is the best milkshake ever. So, we can say, my milkshake is Reference Quality and 'bringing boys to the yard' is the Reference Standard. You may not agree that my milkshake is the best, but since the whole world thinks so, I can say,

My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard,
And they're like
It's better than yours,
Damn right it's better than yours,
I can teach you,
But I have to charge

And that is exactly why all the mass market equipment is so expensive and it means jack isht if they are actually good or not.

-------------

But, in all this, how do you know that your setup is 'Reference Quality and Standard'?. This is done via measurements and tweaking settings. This process is termed 'Calibration'. How to calibrate for reference is a whole other discussion, but, there are several articles under AH University that guides a user through this.

To be continued... (need to drive home :D)
 
ozmedia

ozmedia

Audioholic
I suggest a thorough reading of the topic next time. You got the wrong impression and then got on your soap box. :)

Though it's very enertaining I admit. :p

We were discussing various aspects of speaker specs not labels. :)

Reference in this case was referring to the overall volume of the system at 1w:)
It's a good thing I didn't mention labels then. Perhaps I should let the poster, who thanked me for the info, know too.

I don't have a soapbox, just a wee step so I can see over the counter.
 
ozmedia

ozmedia

Audioholic
Now Now

'Reference' is a very broad term used in different contexts in the AV world.
.....But, in all this, how do you know that your setup is 'Reference Quality and Standard'?. This is done via measurements and tweaking settings. This process is termed 'Calibration'. How to calibrate for reference is a whole other discussion, but, there are several articles under AH University that guides a user through this.

To be continued... (need to drive home :D)
"Originally Posted by lsiberian
I suggest a thorough reading of the topic next time. You got the wrong impression and then got on your soap box.

Though it's very enertaining I admit.

We were discussing various aspects of speaker specs not labels.

Reference in this case was referring to the overall volume of the system at 1w"


Now get with the program, you've been told! :D
 
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MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
What is the difference between "monitors", "bookshelves" etc? I get that floor-standings do just that, but I really don't understand what classifies a speaker as a "monitor". The best guess I can come up with is that is bigger than a bookshelf but smaller than floor-standing.
Lots of stuff are called monitors now that probably shouldn't be, but in the true sense, studio monitors generally have flat frequency response and phase/time-alignment, and are often active (have internal amplification). They generally have some sort of protection circuitry also, because mixing sometimes causes some ticks and pops that can be speaker damaging to say the least. A bump of a knob, a push of a fader, etc. can end a speaker if there are high enough levels, and so decent studio monitors try to protect that.

Near-field monitors are after the idea that if you place a speaker close enough to you, you can mix at a low enough level where the room won't make as much of a difference on acoustics. Treatments still obviously help, but, the closer you are to the speaker, the less stuff bounces off the walls before it hits you.

Mid-field monitors are higher output and designed to be exclusively in a treated room. Those are the larger speakers you'll see on the walls of larger studios.

Examples of companies that make decent or better studio monitors are Genelec, JBL, Bag End, Dynaudio Professional, Mackie and Adam...
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you very much.

I am going to ask another question instead of starting a new thread:

What does f/3 = (xx)Hz mean? I am guessing it means the third order falloff frequency.

Thanks.
From annunaki's sticky in the Subwoofer Forum:

"F3: This is a point in a sub system's response in which its response drops -3db below the reference plane or 0db on a frequency response graph."

In other words it is where a speaker's ability to produce low frequency sounds is diminished by 3db. From there it's ability to produce any frequencies that are even lower diminishes rather rapidly in most cases.

Lots of other cool terms in that thread that you may like knowing since you seem to be getting curious about this stuff. My advice is to forget you ever asked but here it is because people never do what's good for them. :rolleyes: :D

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37001
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
I should point out that dB is a logarithmic scale so 3dB down is actually half power.

Going by manufacturer specs is chancy, even for reputable ones. I know of one speaker maker that publishes their frequency response charts. They tend to contradict the stated frequency range even with a generous interpretation.

Often the sensitivity of a speaker is the measured output of a 1kHz sine wave at 2.83V from 1 meter away. That's 1 watt for 8 ohm speakers but 2 watts for 4 ohm speakers. That means the power is doubled into a 4 ohm speaker and the sensitivity is overstated by 3dB relative to 1 watt.

Jim
 
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